In this engaging episode, Charles and Doug explore the intersection of True Crime with Rock and Roll with renowned guest Jim Berkenstadt, known as the Rock and Roll Detective. Jim shares captivating stories from his career, including explosive concert experiences and his eighth-grade first 'case' involving Beatles conspiracy theories. Jim discusses his bestselling works such as 'The Beatle Who Vanished,' being adapted into a movie, and 'Mysteries in the Music: Case Closed,' which delves into various rock and roll mysteries. He also touches on his role in consulting for rock documentaries and his detailed research into enigmatic stories like the FBI's investigation into 'Louie Louie.' Wrapping up, Jim reveals intriguing details about his other projects, including a forthcoming documentary, 'If These Walls Could Rock.'
In this episode of 'Seeing Them Live,' Charles and Doug explore the intersection of True Crime and Rock and Roll with guest Jim Berkenstadt, also known as the Rock and Roll Detective. Berkenstadt has a worldwide reputation for uncovering the hidden histories and mysteries within popular music. His exhaustive investigative works span from serving as a historical consultant on several high-profile documentaries to publishing award-winning books that delve into the enigmatic corners of rock history. Berkenstadt recounts his initial foray into rock investigation during eighth grade when he explored the 'Paul is Dead' conspiracy surrounding Paul McCartney. This early experience sparked his lifelong passion for becoming a rock detective, leading to a prolific career that has seen him solving many mysteries in the music world involving elements of True Crime.
Jim shares stories about attending memorable concerts, including a terrifying but exhilarating Wings concert in 1976 where pyrotechnics blew him and his friend off their chairs. He also recalls sneaking into a sold-out George Harrison concert and the emotional tribute concert for George Harrison organized by Eric Clapton.
Berkenstadt discusses his book 'Mysteries in the Music: Case Closed,' which tackles complex topics such as the FBI's extensive and somewhat absurd investigation into alleged obscene lyrics in the song 'Louie Louie,' the CIA’s possible involvement in Bob Marley’s death, and the Beach Boys' interactions with Charles Manson.
Additionally, Berkenstadt's book 'The Beatle Who Vanished' narrates the incredible yet true story of Jimmy Nichol, a drummer who substituted for Ringo Starr during a Beatles tour, only to mysteriously disappear from the public eye. The discussion also covers Berkenstadt's involvement in music documentaries like 'George Harrison: Living in the Material World' and his upcoming work on Nirvana's Nevermind album. Through a combination of rock legends, government intrigue, True Crime, and lost histories, Jim Berkenstadt brings to life the dramatic and captivating interplay of True Crime and rock and roll.
BANDS: Billy Preston, Buddy Guy, Eric Clapton, Foo Fighters, Garbage, Green Day, Jeff Lynne, Monty Python's Flying Circus, Muddy Waters, Nirvana, Ravi Shankar, Ringo Starr, Smashing Pumpkins, The Beatles, The Euphorics, The Quarry Men, The Rainbows, The Rolling Stones, The Spotnicks, The Traveling Wilburys, Tom Petty, Traffic, Wings.
VENUES: Chicago Stadium, Edgewater Hotel, Royal Albert Hall, Soldier Field, Sunset Marquee, The Checkerboard Lounge.
[00:00:25] Jim: And unbeknownst to us, right up on the stage next to his piano, were these explosive devices, they were all around the stage, but we're right there. And when he did Live and Let Die and hit that cord. Everything blew up and we just saw a white flash. And when we were able to see, again, we were on our backs, it had blown us backward on these little folding chairs and we were looking up at the ceiling and we were like, oh my God, are you okay?
[00:00:55] Charles: Today's guest is Jim Berkenstadt. Jim is known [00:01:00] worldwide as the Rock and Roll Detective, and is a true musical Sherlock Holmes. He is also an award-winning bestselling author who uncovers the lost history and mysteries hidden within decades of popular music. He recently optioned his award-winning bestseller, The Beatle Who Vanished to Ecosse Studios in London.
[00:01:22] An international authority on rock and roll, Jim served as a historical consultant to Martin Scorsese's, HBO, Emmy-winning film, George Harrison: Living in the Material World, and he also served as historical consultant to the late George Harrison, the Beatles Company, Apple Corps, Olivia and Dhani Harrison, and the estate of Roy Orbison. Birkenstadt located the long lost B roll audio, completing the Beatles new documentary, Get Back, which is available on Disney+.
[00:01:53] He has also served as historical consultant on several rock documentaries such as Eight [00:02:00] Days a Week, I Wanna Rock: The 80s Metal Dream and the forthcoming film, If These Walls Could Rock. His work has appeared on HBO, Hulu, Disney+, Netflix, and Paramount+. He's appeared as an expert on Reels Channel TV series, Celebrity Legacies and Damage Control.
[00:02:21] Jim has also served as consultant to Grammy producer Butch Vig, who has produced albums for such bands as Garbage, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins, Green Day and others. He has also authored Black Market Beatles: The Story Behind Their Lost Recordings and Classic Rock Albums: Nirvana Nevermind. His newest gold medal award-winning Amazon number one bestseller is called Mysteries In the Music: Case Closed. All four books have been included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, permanent library and archives. Jim, welcome to Seeing Them Live.
[00:02:58] Jim: Thank you very much for having [00:03:00] me on. Wow. What a, what? A lot of stuff there. I Got tired just hearing all the work I've done.
[00:03:06] Charles: Yeah, I'd like to point out too that I'm also joined, today by my co-host and producer, Doug Florzak. So yeah, Jim, you're a pretty busy guy. You've done a lot of stuff, and, as is our format on Seeing Them Live, we start with concert stories and start with the first concert, but I thought we'd go back a little earlier.
[00:03:25] 'Cause your first concert you went to, you were 17, but I wanted to let listeners know that you got your rock and roll detective, maybe first case you ever worked on was in eighth grade in a, like a history civics class.
[00:03:39] Jim: Yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, I had seen The Beatles on Ed Sullivan in 64, and so I was, you know, a big fan. And by 69 there was this, uh, conspiracy that started in the fall, you know, whether or not Paul McCartney is dead. And I was fascinated by hearing and [00:04:00] reading about the clues. And, you know, started looking at the album covers, turning the records backwards to hear those clues and things.
[00:04:08] 'Cause the Beatles like to do backward masking on some of their records by then. And I was, I took a bunch of albums to school and before the class started in eighth grade, I was just showing these other guys. You know, oh, look here. Paul's barefoot on the cover of Abbey Road, and there there's a, a crack in the wall on the back cover all these things that supposedly pointed to, uh, to the fact that Paul had died and the Beatles had covered it up and found a lookalike.
[00:04:40] And, um, which that story will come up again, uh, when we talk about me going to see Paul and Linda McCartney in Wings in 76. But it was, it was really interesting. And then the prof, the teacher came in and said, Jim, this is really fascinating. Next [00:05:00] Thursday, I think you ought to give a one hour presentation to the class about this.
[00:05:04] So I really think that was the first time that I, uh, as a eighth grader decided, I guess I'm gonna someday be a rock and roll detective, because this is really a lot of fun, you know, figuring these things out.
[00:05:18] Charles: Yeah. That's a cool story. It's like, oh, great. Uh, you know, I got, I got an interesting project to work on. Oh, that's cool. But yeah, your first concert, I think I have you here at like 17 years old. You went to see George Harrison and Ravi Shankar at the Chicago Stadium. Yeah. November 30th? Was this 1974 perhaps?
[00:05:39] Jim: That's right. That's what my ticket stub says. So that was interesting because I had been trying or, and wanting to go to rock concerts long before that. And my parents would always say, well, that's a very dangerous area. Cause in Chicago there are some dangerous areas. So they didn't [00:06:00] want me to go there, to Chicago Stadium. So I, when George Harrison came, I thought, you know, my parents didn't let me go see the Beatles live in concert while I was eight, nine, and 10.
[00:06:10] But now that I'm 17, I'm going to see a Beatle. And it was George with Ravi Shankar. And I think also we had seen the movie Concert for Bangladesh, which featured them, of course, and others, and we just really wanted to see them live. So, I called up my buddy Gary, and, and, uh, I said, you wanna go to that show? And he goes, yeah, but it's sold out. And I said, well, let me handle it.
[00:06:35] So, I asked my parents, can we go? And my dad said, no, that's, it's a bad neighborhood. And the show's been sold out and there's no tickets, there's no use going. And I already knew what scalpers were then. So I said, okay, dad. So mom and dad went out to dinner in their larger car. And I called up my buddy Gary next door and said, come on over, we're going to the concert. [00:07:00] So he jumps in the car, he doesn't even tell his parents we're going. We got into my dad's Camaro and sped down to Chicago Stadium without a ticket.
[00:07:08] And we got there, we parked and I asked the gentleman who had just helped us park the car on the stadium grounds, Hey, do you know if anyone has any tickets? And he pointed to a little shack that was actually on the parking lot of the stadium on West Madison. And we thought, that's, it looks like a, you know, a one person bathroom or something. What, what is that? So we went over and we opened the door and it's pitch black and a stairway down, and we're like, in here. Really? He goes, yeah, yeah.
[00:07:40] Charles: Yeah, that doesn't sound good.
[00:07:42] Jim: That doesn't sound good. So of course I said, Gary, you go first. I'll pick up the back. So we crawled out, I go down these steps and finally, there's a little bit of light down there. And when we got there, we saw a whole gang of kids, and I literally mean a street gang. And they were all [00:08:00] sitting on the floor kinda waiting for their orders of what to do next. And over in the corner was a guy in a desk who was probably about 50 and there was just a single light bulb hanging from a wire. And that was all that lit up the room. And, he said, what do you guys want? And I said, hi, uh, I am Jim, and this is Gary. And we heard that you might have tickets to the concert tonight, George Harrison. My name's Beefy. He said. Beefy.
[00:08:33] So, uh. I said, nice to meet you and, and all your friends here. And he said, how much money do you have? Yeah, I think tickets were probably, the cover price was probably $3, $4 a ticket back then.
[00:08:48] Well, we each like dug into our pockets and scraped together $17. And I handed over to him and he said, that's not enough. And then he looked at Gary and [00:09:00] he said, I'll take your hat. And Gary says to me, I can't give him my hat. That's my dad's hat for brick laying. I said, give him the hat or we're going to die. So Gary, Gary takes off the hat and he hands it to Beefy and Beefy immediately puts the hat on. And he says, all right, here you go. And he gave us two tickets and I checked that it was for the correct show, 'cause back then anyway, scalpers would sometimes sell you, at least in Chicago, tickets to shows that had already happened.
[00:09:33] So everything was correct. We went back upstairs and, uh, ran out of there basically, and we were terrified. But we got into the stadium, uh, watched the show. It was wonderful. And many years later, when I worked for George Harrison, I emailed him one day and told him that story and I said, it was a great show, but you know, this is what happened. And he goes, he wrote back something like, well, you must be a true fan then. And [00:10:00] then, and then, uh, later, Ravi Shankar came to town and I went backstage to meet him. He was like 89 years old at the time. And I told him the whole story just as I've told you and your listeners.
[00:10:13] And afterwards, this was his takeaway. He said, well, did you give the car back to your dad? I said, yeah, we put it back in the garage. And, uh, I said, but later, my dad would always come home and he'd put his hand on the engine, not the engine but the, the top of it, and he'd say, if it was hot, he'd say, where'd you go? In my car?
[00:10:33] And so I had to say that we went to the pizza place down the street and that, and then got rid of that problem. I said, but yeah, I returned the car. And he, and so Ravi Schenker said, so you really did not steal your dad's car. That really isn't accurate. You just sort of borrowed it without permission. I said, that's right, Ravi. So, that was my first show.
[00:10:54] Charles: Cool. Yeah, it's probably a nice car, right? Your dad, probably kept it nice. A Camaro [00:11:00] versus family truckster...
[00:11:01] Jim: Family car. Yes. It was Fast. 72, I think it was called a Berlinetta.
[00:11:07] Charles: I love those full circle stories.
[00:11:09] Jim: Pretty lucky.
[00:11:11] Charles: But then, an equally crazy story, couple years later, you're at the Chicago Stadium again to see Paul McCartney and Wings in 1976, and you, somehow got these really awesome orchestra pit seats.
[00:11:27] Jim: Right. My mom knew the gentleman, she was actually, she had a girlfriend who was dating this gentleman who was, uh, the president of Wurtz Realty or something like that. And the Wurtz's owned, the Chicago stadium. And so I told her that we really wanna go to this. By then, you know, I was thought to be old enough to go. Two years later, it was okay, I could go see this concert.
[00:11:53] And I think somehow she felt now that she knew this person, that it would be a safe place to go. [00:12:00] So she asked him and, and he said, yeah, I'll get 'em, get 'em two tickets and we will hold 'em at the box office. And they, they had special writing on them. They didn't have section or number or anything, but they had some special code on them.
[00:12:14] So we asked the usher to, uh, direct us in, and he took us down into the orchestra pit where there were a couple of photographers standing around waiting for the show. And all of a sudden he went kind of backstage behind the curtain and pulled out two folding chairs, and he set them up right by Paul McCartney's piano, which was sort of towards the side back of the stage.
[00:12:39] We were like, really? These are our seats? And he said, yep, you must know somebody. So that was, we were blown away. That was fantastic. So we're sitting there and, uh, we're enjoying the show and I, I wanna say it was towards the end of the first half of the show before they take a break, and I think that's when [00:13:00] Paul did Live and Let Die.
[00:13:02] And unbeknownst to us, right up on the stage next to his piano, were these explosive devices, they were all around the stage, but we're right there. And when he did Live and Let Die and hit that cord. Everything blew up and we just saw a white flash. And when we were able to see, again, we were on our backs, it had blown us backward on these little folding chairs and we were looking up at the ceiling and we were like, oh my God, are you okay?
[00:13:33] Yeah, we were okay. Luckily we were fortified with some beers, so I think that that prevented any injury. So we got back our chairs and you know, uh, Paul must have noticed us or something, I don't know, because then they took a break and Paul and Linda came down the steps there. But before they went backstage, they came over to us and I think they just wanna make sure we were okay.
[00:13:57] And Paul said to me, [00:14:00] so how do you like the show so far? And I said. You know, it's, I think it's the best show I will ever see in my life. And, you know, that was what came out of my mouth. And he, and because I'm sitting there going, I'm talking to Paul McCartney, I can't believe this. So he was very happy with that answer.
[00:14:21] You know, this will be the best show ever. And, uh, so we chatted a little bit about some of the songs and Gary was talking to Linda. And then at some point we switched and Gary started talking to Paul and I started talking to Linda and I said to her, and this is another full circle story from eighth grade.
[00:14:38] And I said, so, you know, I, I've been working on solving this for a long time and I'm wondering what was it like to date the real Paul McCartney and now be married to the fake replacement Paul McCartney? And she absolutely broke up laughing at the question and, and just. I was laughing and laughing and I said, I [00:15:00] think you've answered my question that, uh, Paul is not done.
[00:15:04] And she said, no one's ever asked me that question before. So I, I was glad that I could come full circle on that one as well. Just, you know, pure luck. I didn't know that I would, you know, ever get to meet Beatles or, or work for them or anything.
[00:15:18] Charles: Yeah. That's incredible. That's an awesome story. Oh my God. Did you take your dad's Camaro to that, show or no.
[00:15:25] Jim: I did, but this time I had permission because my mom knew the, you know, the, the real estate guy that ran the building.
[00:15:32] Charles: So your best concert, that you put down, Jim also involves a Beatle. It was a concert for George Harrison. This was, I guess, after he passed away. Is that correct?
[00:15:42] Jim: Right. About a year later, Eric Clapton, created a show as a tribute to George Harrison and Olivia Harrison invited me to the show and I sat with her friends and it was great because there were, you know, so many people that I have enjoyed over the years, like Monty [00:16:00] Python's Flying Circus came on and opened the show with some comedy and Eric Clapton, Jeff Lynne, Billy Preston, Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, Jim Keltner, just so many.
[00:16:13] Charles: Tom Petty, I think, was there even.
[00:16:15] Jim: Yeah. Tom Petty. So many great people came on stage. I was actually at Apple, the Beatles headquarters in London a couple days before the show. And I was chatting with Neil Aspinall, who was the CEO at the time, and had been with them since he was their road manager all the way back to the turn of the century that way, back to 1960 or so.
[00:16:41] And I said, are you involved in helping to put this together. And he said, yeah, we're helping as well. And we're looking forward to it. And then he said, but fucking, Jim Capaldi. And Jim Capaldi for people listening was a drummer of Traffic. And I said, what's wrong with fucking Jim [00:17:00] Capaldi, and he said, fucking, Jim Capaldi shows up to rehearsals the very last day, and we've got to make, we've got 15 drummers up there, we've got Ringo, we've got Ray Cooper, we've got, you know, all these Clapton's drummer, and all of a sudden fucking Jim Capaldi comes in. So I thought that was kind of funny.
[00:17:23] And I think he had a tambourine or something there. But you know, I could understand that, you know, Eric Clapton probably spent a month with rehearsals and then all of a sudden someone shows up at the last second and says can I play? But it was a beautiful concert. And then, I do remember once it came out on DVDI, I wanted to show our kids and, at the very end, there's all these rose petals that come floating down, as Joe Brown sang a really nice tribute song with his ukulele to George. And, it's like raining fresh rose petals in this, Royal Albert Hall.
[00:17:57] And all of a sudden my son says, dad freeze [00:18:00] that. I freeze it and all I see are just rose petals. He goes, there you are, you're in the movie. I'm like, really? I'm in the, you mean I'm in this concert? I'm in the movie. He goes, yeah. So he says, back it up. And there I was. So, I think when any of The Beatles do a show and they know where their people are sitting, they tend to sneak them on camera. That was a great show. Great honor to be invited.
[00:18:22] Charles: That must have been really something. Probably kind of emotional for you as well, right?
[00:18:26] Jim: Very emotional. I mean, it was a celebration of his life, but it was like he's the one person that we wish could have been at this concert. And I hope he was looking down and enjoying it, 'cause all of his friends were there to pay tribute to him.
[00:18:42] Charles: That sounds really awesome. well, Jim, we have some other things you had filled out on our form.
[00:18:49] Jim: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:49] Charles: Your best concert and your most disappointing both involve Muddy Waters. One of your best concerts, I should say. You have several best concerts, I guess. The [00:19:00] one we just talked about. But, you saw Muddy Waters at a small club on the north side of Chicago, and you, you got to talk to him.
[00:19:07] Jim: Yeah. And, you know, Muddy Waters was always very entertaining and he's, I, I really liked his singing style. I, you know, growing up in the Chicago area, I was very lucky because all of these great blues artists who had recorded say at Chess Records and such, and had come up from Mississippi and, and the South years and years ago, were still playing. Were still in the prime.
[00:19:34] So whenever possible, my friend Gary and I would try to go see these blues guys, I don't know if he was with me that night, but I saw Muddy Waters at this little club. And afterwards I had an album with me, one of his albums, and I went up to him and said, Hey, it's so nice to meet you and you know, I've seen you a few times and you know, I said, you're kind of like, you, you feel like our [00:20:00] grandfather.
[00:20:00] And he goes, you know, I've heard that before. And I said, yeah, you're just like this nice grandfather guy. So, you know, we just talked about music and, and I asked him about how he sort of took Buddy Guy under his wing and things like that. And then, uh, he says, oh, you got one of my albums. And I said, yeah, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind signing it.
[00:20:20] He goes, absolutely, what's your name? And I said, I'm Jim. So he wrote To Jimbo Muddy Waters. So that was fun getting to talk to him. And, later I did see him again with my wife, wanna say the late, late seventies. He toured with Eric Clapton and they came to our town and we got to see that show.
[00:20:40] Charles: Yeah, because then, maybe this was later, you were trying to get somebody to go with you to the checkerboard lounge.
[00:20:47] Jim: That's right that in 1981, the Rolling Stones played Soldier Field, and I got a phone call from a friend of mine who was on the radio in Chicago at one of the rock stations. And he tipped me off and [00:21:00] he said that Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, and the Rolling Stones are all gonna play at Muddy and Buddy's Club called the Checkerboard Lounge, which was on the southwest side of Chicago.
[00:21:13] And at that point, I knew that was probably the most dangerous neighborhood to go to at that time. And so I'm like, well, I, I don't want to go alone. I'll go with a friend. I, I think I, I must have called 20 or 25 friends. Begging them to go. And one guy said, I wouldn't go there if I was escorted inside of a tank.
[00:21:38] So, I missed the show. And sure enough, the Rolling Stones came in and did a surprise show there with Muddy Waters and Buddy Guy and some other blues greats. And it's a really cool, it was a really cool show. Luckily, for people who go out there and search it, I think it's, it's now available officially as a DVD and a cd and it's called, [00:22:00] I think, the Rolling Stones at Checkerboard Lounge or something like that. And it's a really cool show, so I finally got to see it. It just would've been a little more fun to be there in person.
[00:22:10] Charles: Yeah. I can sympathize with you because that area was, I remember, back when I was in high school, it was a tough area to go by yourself for sure. So, one more concert story, Jim, that you put down, the Beatles, Cirque du Soleil, Vegas, which was June 30th, 2006.
[00:22:30] Jim: Six, right? That was the opening night of the Beatles Cirque du Soleil show. And of course they were all there and their families were there and lots of celebrities. I had worked on that show, Neil Aspinall had hired me. Specifically the project was that he wanted to create a sound bed, or he wanted to give the, these tapes to Giles Martin to Martin's son to create a sound bed for [00:23:00] when the Cirque de Soleil players go off at some point and take a break, get a drink, change their costumes, et cetera.
[00:23:08] And while that would happen, there would be shadowy pictures of the Beatles, up in the ceiling area of the show. And they wanted to have audio of the Beatles laughing, chatting, tuning their guitars, telling jokes, just mostly nothing musical, just verbal. And so he had a very specific reference point.
[00:23:31] He said, I want you to get them laughing, joking, whatever, from press conferences and any bootleg stuff you have where they're in the, studio between April of 1965 and September of 1965. Okay, that's pretty specific.
[00:23:50] Charles: Very specific.
[00:23:51] Jim: Lucky for me, I have a database that's searchable and you know, I've collected a lot of stuff over the years. So, I [00:24:00] typed in those dates and the Beatles and up came, oh, and I think I put in the word one time, put in the word interviews another time I put like studio chat, different things like that. And it pulled up all the recordings that I thought would, would be good for their consideration. Sent them all off.
[00:24:18] And then Giles Martin. Created a sound collage of all these things. And so people are entertained by listening to The Beatles and seeing their shadows while the players are off. So anyway, it was very nice. The Beatles company, Apple and Neil Aspinall invited us to the premiere, my wife and I, and, we were getting our, oh, well, first I went to pick up the tickets and there were two passes.
[00:24:45] It said VIP after party passes. And I was like, oh, wow, this should be fun. And I turned around and there was Neil Aspinall smiling and just staring at me. And I said, wow. Thank you so much for the tickets and [00:25:00] really thank you for the after party. I said, this will be my first Beatles after party. And he said probably the last. So, we were upstairs, you know, getting into the fancy duds for the walking the red carpet thing. And my wife said, all right Jim, you're not gonna be a geek. You're not gonna be a fan. No pictures, no autographs, no geeking out at any Beatles. I said, yes dear, as I do. And so I thought, yeah, I can handle that.
[00:25:35] So we go to the show, we sat down. We were right there, front row center. Those were the tickets. Neil Aspinall had given us the best possible seats. It was really exciting, and there was this very dapper looking guy next to me with a tuxedo, and his wife was in a designer gown and he turned to me and he said, who are you? And I said, I'm Jim Birkenstadt, the Rock and Roll Detective.
[00:25:58] And he said, oh, well where'd you get [00:26:00] those seats? And I said, Neil Aspinall of the Beatles Company, Apple gave them to me. And he said, oh, hmm. And I said, who are you? And he said, I own the Mirage. And I said, oh, that's nice. How do you like that job? He was not happy 'cause he was two seats to the left of Front Row Center.
[00:26:22] So that was kind of funny. And I looked around, there was, down the row was, Kramer from Seinfeld. I turned around behind me and the row right behind me was Ringo's All Star Band. And then I think two rows up from them, were Paul McCartney, Ringo Star, Olivia Harrison, Yoko Ono, George Martin, Gilles Martin, all their family.
[00:26:46] So, it's just really amazing for me. Again, growing up and having seen the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and then realizing that you get to actually work for them and help them do things, collaborate with them is just, I'm, I feel blessed.
[00:26:59] [00:27:00] So, the show was really wonderful. And then afterwards we went into this gigantic ballroom. It had a swimming pool with live mermaids swimming around, and they had these characters from Yellow Submarine that were on the big stilts. And instead of dropping Apple bonkers on your head, they would serve you, cocktails that were all lit up. And it was just really amazing. And so, Paul McCartney came by and my wife said, why don't you go talk to him?
[00:27:31] I said, well, I thought, I'm not supposed to do any, you could talk to him. So I went over, chatted with Paul and, you know, told him how, how I'd worked on the show and how much I enjoyed it, blah, blah, blah. And I should have mentioned that, that I'm the guy, he blew off his seat in 76, but I didn't.
[00:27:49] And then, you know, there were other interesting people going by. And then we ran into my friend Jim Keltner, who of course has drummed for Ringo and George Harrison and [00:28:00] John Lennon and Traveling Wilburys. And so I introduced Jim and his wife Cynthia, to my wife Holly, and the four of us were having really nice conversation.
[00:28:12] And at some point they paired off. Holly was talking to Cynthia, and then Jim had a friend come up to him and he looked like some, you know, classic rock star. And I was just sort of seeing people go by. Tony Bennett went by. Ringo. Ravi Shankar. All these people were going by, and I was like, this is the coolest party I've ever been to.
[00:28:36] So all of a sudden Jim Keltner said, I'm sorry, Jim, I forgot to introduce you. Jim Berkenstadt, this is John, John Densmore. This is Jim Berkenstadt. And I said, hi, John. Hi. You are John Densmore of the Doors. And boy was my wife unhappy. It was just organic. I was so excited to be John Densmore of the [00:29:00] Doors, their drummer.
[00:29:01] And John Densmore turned to me and he said. Wait, you're Jim Berkenstadt. So that of course, immediately made me laugh and put me at ease. But, uh, I got in trouble later. I was in the doghouse and I said, no, you said, don't get all geeky and excited about the Beatles. And I was very calm with the Beatles. I just was a little excited to see John Densmore.
[00:29:26] Charles: Oh man. Yeah, that's gotta be kind of surreal to be in that environment, I would imagine.
[00:29:31] Jim: Oh, absolutely.
[00:29:32] Charles: That's really crazy. Well, those are some fantastic stories, Jim.
[00:29:36] Jim: Thank you.
[00:29:37] Charles: Really, really interesting. I thought maybe we would switch gears a little bit and talk about some of your work. Your books and such. And, I guess we'll start with the Mysteries in the Music: Case C losed.
[00:29:50] Jim: Mmmm.
[00:29:51] Charles: And Doug found your book, from one of our podcast friends, big Rick from Rock Talk Studio.
[00:29:58] Jim: Oh yeah.
[00:29:59] Charles: [00:30:00]Recommended your book. And so Doug read it. And in the meantime, we were asked to be guests, Doug and I on another podcast called Music Notes with Jess. She likes to read lyrics during her program. And she's been on Seeing Them Live, a couple times. And so we thought, yeah, let's put together like a lyrics episode, or misinterpretation and stuff. So we were on there, Doug and I, and he, basically did a very nice, report of your chapter from that book, The FBI vs Merchants of Filth, um, revolved around the, the song Louie Louie, which all of these stories in this book, Jim.
[00:30:40] Jim: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:41] Charles: And I can go through and read some of the titles of these chapters. Like who really discovered Elvis Presley, the Masked Marauders: Supergroup or Masquerade, Did the CIA Kill Bob Marley, and then the one Doug had referenced during our conversation, the FBI versus [00:31:00] Merchants of Filth?
[00:31:01] There's great one about the Traveling Wilburys, is just awesome. A Blues Marvel Unmasked. The Secrets Concealed within Nirvana's Nevermind Album, which I'd learned so much about that album you touch on some really cool points there. And then the last one, did the Beach Boys Steal a Song from Charles Manson is the last chapter, and I know your, book, the Beatle who Vanished is being turned into a movie.
[00:31:30] Jim: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:30] Charles: That chapter I think could be some kind of a movie. It's nuts. And I don't wanna reveal too much on any of these chapters, but like, basically Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys innocently picks up a couple of Hitchhikers, two women.
[00:31:46] Jim: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:47] Charles: And they happen to be members of the Manson Family. And it kind of devolves from there. Really interesting things that you uncover and debunk and, man, that kind of remind me of [00:32:00] like a Quentin Tarantino movie or something.
[00:32:02] Jim: Yeah. Or even, you know, I, I think it could be either a drama, you know, feature type film, but also maybe it could be even just a 90 minute documentary. I think that it's never really, uh, been covered. Or solved until now, and it just, the, you know, you, it takes you back to a time where it was a more innocent time and people weren't as aware of psycho killers and, and people with cults and those things that since then we've had a lot more of that in our society.
[00:32:39] But, at the time, you know, to think that this crazy little guru, hippie guy would turn into, you know, psycho murderer and basically get his own people who were just wayward teenagers to go along with his crazy ideas. I mean, certainly LSD had a [00:33:00] lot to do with those Helter Skelter killings. But at the same time he was explaining to them that songs from the White Album were telling him that there was going to be a race riot between black people and white people. And that, he wanted them to come out and lead the black people after the black people won the race riots and to actually start killings and try to make them look like the blacks might have done it or something.
[00:33:28] So he was a racist and just a crazy person. But before all that, he was just this sort of guy that came out of prison from stealing cars and whatnot, and poor Dennis Wilson was just some nice guy who happened to be a drummer with the Beach Boys and, you know, picked up a couple gals.
[00:33:46] It's just a crazy time period that we'll probably never live through again. It really was sort of a turning point for the sixties because the whole peace and love and summer of love and all of [00:34:00] that turned very dark, in 1969, both with that event, and the Altamont Rolling Stones concert where people got stabbed and killed. Oh, and then that's also the same time period when we had the Paul his dead rumors. So, it was a bad ending to the whole hippie peace and love movement.
[00:34:20] Charles: Yeah. And, I wrote in my notes here, just having Charles Manson basically living in your house and running up a tab of incredible, amounts of money and stuff.
[00:34:31] Jim: In 1969 it was a hundred thousand dollars roughly, medical bills for all the girls, food, all types of things. And then of course, also he paid to, have this guy Greg Jacobson, take Manson into the studio and record some songs, some demos. So he paid for that.
[00:34:52] And part of the reason behind that was both altruistic because he thought this guy's an interesting character, but also it [00:35:00] was Brian Wilson was really starting to struggle with mental health issues and dropping acid and all of that. And they could no longer really expect him at that time period to be writing more big hits.
[00:35:14] So all the other Beach Boys had to sort of jump in and bring some songs to the table. And so I think that, in the back of his mind, Dennis thought maybe I can learn some things from this Manson character or maybe approach him about some of his songs that I can turn into my songs, that sort of thing.
[00:35:31] And that's what led to the whole question, because Manson stated several times after the murders that, and even before the murders, that he had written these songs and that Dennis Wilson stole them. And of course, I really dug into it.
[00:35:47] One of the people that I had to find was Greg Jacobson, the gentleman who was sort of an all around helper to Dennis Wilson. And he had vanished off the face of the map and part of the reason I [00:36:00] suspect is because he actually testified against Manson at the murder trials. So Manson had all these little followers, not all of whom went to prison, and he was worried that they might try to seek revenge on him, so he vanished.
[00:36:15] So, most people, when they're searching for someone on Google get to like page two and give up, or even page one into page one and give up. Finally, on page 24 of trying to find this guy Greg, I found that he had recorded a song with Taylor Hawkins, the late drummer of the Foo Fighters who was alive at the time I was doing the research.
[00:36:36] So I knew my friend Butch Vig had worked with the Foo Fighters. So he put me in touch. Taylor Hawkins, I explained what I wanted and he said, all right, I'm gonna give you his phone number and you tell him you got it from me, but don't ever share it. Don't ever reveal where he lives for the obvious reasons I've discussed.
[00:36:54] So I called up Greg and he's very sharp guy and he had a great memory [00:37:00] of those times, and especially what the transactions were and discussions about the song between the Manson had started and that ended up on a Beach Boys record without crediting him. And so without giving it away, I'll just tell you that even once you know the facts, I'm a former trial lawyer, you still have to apply the facts to the law.
[00:37:23] And I discovered that the copyright law that applied to the facts of this case was written in 1903. And one thing you'd see if you looked at a bunch of law books like I have over the years is that in the early 19 hundreds, a law was like maybe a page long. Nowadays, if you look up a law about something, it goes on and on and on for pages, and then there's exclusions and exceptions and it's forever.
[00:37:54] So the problem with those shorter laws is that they don't [00:38:00] always think of everything or cover everything. And then you have a case of, well, I have these facts, but the law doesn't really speak to it. So that involved more legal research, talking to a federal judge who's a copyright expert as well as a lawyer. So, whenever I'm researching something, I just go to the end of the earth because I don't wanna say case closed unless I have really answered the questions. And that's what I do in this book.
[00:38:26] Charles: Yeah, and that, chapter, like you said, it was really, crazy.
[00:38:31] Jim: Yeah.
[00:38:32] Charles: Getting tangled up with a guy like Charles Manson. Oh my God. It's a great, great chapter.
[00:38:37] Jim: Fun book to write.
[00:38:38] Charles: Yeah, each chapter is a case basically, right?
[00:38:42] Jim: Right.
[00:38:43] Charles: So you debunk a lot of these myths and conspiracy theories. And I listen to Sound Opinions a podcasts with Greg Kott and Jim DeRogatis from Chicago and, DeRogatis had written a book called, , Let it Blurt: The Life and Times of Lester [00:39:00] Bangs America's G reatest Rock Critic. And he quotes him from time to time and he says, Lester Bangs says, there are no facts in rock and roll, only myth. But, I but don't think you would agree with that because that's exactly what you do in this book. You take these myths or these conspiracy theories and pull them apart and arrive at facts by interviewing people, looking things up, and stuff like that.
[00:39:24] And, and the Bob Marley chapter, Did the CIA Kill Bob Marley. I'll just say there, it boiled down, he said to two things, Fidel Castro and this bauxite mineral.
[00:39:35] Jim: For aluminum.
[00:39:36] Charles: Which is so bizarre.
[00:39:38] Jim: Yeah, that's like you're thinking about rock and roll and then you realize that the whole story comes down to multinational corporations wanting their profits and the government of the United States meddling in another country's election to protect those people. And it's like, whoa, how did we get here from Bob Marley and such. What [00:40:00] was the most fun thing about the research on that chapter was that I had a friend at the time that was working at Fox News, and it's really interesting. A lot of people would expect that the only people who work at Fox News are Republicans. And similarly, they might expect the only people working at M-S-N-B-C are Democrats, but that's not the case.
[00:40:26] People go where they get the job. So, I called her up, she's Democrat, but I said, Hey, I hear that Colonel Oliver North has a TV show on Sundays on Fox. And I said, I need to talk to him. And she said, why? And I explained, you know, this case I was working on with Bob Marley and the CIA. She goes, oh, sure, I'll give you his number.
[00:40:49] So I called him up and said, Colonel North, this is Jim Berkenstadt. I'm the Rock and Roll Detective. And he goes, well. to what do I owe this pleasure? And I explained to him that I had [00:41:00] written off, under the Obama administration, asking for Freedom of Information Act records of any CIA records that involved Bob Marley, and even narrowed it to the year 1976. And they wrote back, we can either confirm nor deny whether we have any of those records, which means we have them and you're not gonna see them.
[00:41:20] So I then waited. Then, Donald Trump became president after that, I believe, and I wrote to his administration, CIA I got the exact same letter back. So Democrat, Republican, they both are protecting CIA records related to Bob Marley. We can either confirm nor deny, so go pound sand. I'm like, this is really annoying.
[00:41:41] So I told that to Colonel North and he goes. Oh, I've read those records. They were declassified 10 years ago. I said, well, if they were declassified, why aren't they giving them to me? He goes, oh, you know, those bureaucrats, they're just, they just messing around.
[00:41:55] He goes, you know, you can sue them. I said, yeah, I can spend 10 years [00:42:00] wasting my time and money suing them to get these records to sell a book, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I said, that's, it's gonna cost tons of money and time. He said, well, have you heard of WikiLeaks? And I said, yeah. He said, Julian, Asange, those records.
[00:42:17] I said, okay, thank you. And he said, I recommend you talk to so and so, when you get the record, who was the CIA Chief of Station, but also had the fake name as like assistant to the ambassador. It was really an office of only two people, but once our government decided to meddle in their elections and try to get rid of the socialist guy and bring in a conservative guy to run Jamaica, they sent all these CIA guys down there. So, sure enough WikiLeaks had all the records on their website. So, you never know where, documents are gonna come from.
[00:42:52] Charles: Where the path is going to take you. But, yeah, that story, , Bob Marley, did take a bullet, grazed him, [00:43:00] but it did lodge in his body, which was part of another conspiracy that he died of lead poisoning. And then there was another one, about a shoe, soccer cleat maybe, or something.
[00:43:10] Jim: Yeah, so there was the, son of the CIA director happened to be a filmmaker.
[00:43:17] Charles: Yeah.
[00:43:18] Jim: And he had gotten the job to film Bob Marley's upcoming concert. Then, before the concert took place, that's when Bob was shot. And, they shot up his whole house and he was whisked away to his record label owner's retreat to recover and to decide whether or not he would go through with this concert, which was meant to bring people together two days later.
[00:43:44] And the difficulty with the decision was, do you really wanna put yourself up on stage to be a target, in case someone wants to shoot you again. And this film director was around the son of the CIA agent. And [00:44:00] as the story goes, which was based on hearsay, meaning somebody said somebody saw him, blah, blah, blah.
[00:44:07] But, I found out that somebody wasn't there at the time. But, supposedly someone gave him a gift of the soccer shoes and when he put them on, one had some sort of pointy thing that pricked his toe and then sent in some sort of cancerous substance because later in his life, maybe a few years later, Bob Marley had to have his toe partially amputated, but he wouldn't allow it all to be amputated 'cause he loves soccer too much and he wanted to continue to play, and that's important part of the body.
[00:44:41] So, eventually the cancer spread throughout his whole body. But the question is, did that happen and did the CIA have something to do with it? So, I go into all of the conspiracy theories in that chapter and used documents and interviews with witnesses who were there, which is really fun.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] The CIA agent was like 85 when I called him, and he's like, why are you calling me? He said, I'll tell you the truth, and I'll tell you everything you wanna know, but I don't want you to use my real name. I said, your real name's on the internet at WikiLeaks. He goes, I don't even know what that is, but don't put my name in your book. More people are likely to read your book than they are to find some website. I said, all right, I don't care, I'll change your name.
[00:45:25] Charles: To me, Jim, reading that chapter, you talk about this guy Don Taylor, who was Bob Marley's manager or something?
[00:45:33] Jim: Manager. Yeah.
[00:45:34] Charles: But he had a gambling problem
[00:45:36] Jim: Right.
[00:45:37] Charles: And to me, like he was in the kitchen with Marley and it seems like these guys were ragtag gang members, whatever, go in there and they wanna maybe off this guy, but Bob Marley's standing right there and they're probably thinking, damn, I don't want to kill Bob Marley, but this guy owes me a lot of money kind of thing. You know, you just wonder.
[00:45:57] Jim: Yeah. Well, what'd he take? Four bullets to the back, [00:46:00] or five? Don Taylor. But he survived.
[00:46:02] Charles: Yeah, it was definitely not a Jason Borne, type of attack. It was just spray bullets everywhere. But yeah, that's a super interesting chapter as well in the book. But Doug, did you want to talk about something?
[00:46:16] Doug Florzak: Yes, my favorite chapter, chapter four, the FBI versus Merchants of Filth. And it's about the song Louie Louie, and how the government ended up investigating the song, and so can you talk a little bit about that, chapter.
[00:46:34] Jim: Yeah. Again, I'm always fascinated when there's some story that involves rock and roll, and also somehow the government is involved. And in this case, FBI, director Hoover didn't like rock and roll and he considered rock and rollers and anybody who followed them to be merchants of filth, he had a pamphlet about it that he would send to kids.
[00:46:58] And, I just thought it was [00:47:00] really ridiculous that the band did this song and then suddenly the government, starts to get a few letters in, and I think first it started with Robert F. Kennedy was Attorney General. He got a letter complaining from a father and the kids, what they were doing in school, and I even talked to some of my older friends who were in high school at the time that came out. And they said, you know, we used to share lyrics, but they were just based on what we thought we were hearing on the radio, and we would write them down.
[00:47:34] And so all these different lyrics started being passed around in schools. You know, just words that weren't even in the song. But, when I went to interview band members and the producer I knew who produced a song, et cetera, it's very interesting to see what they do in terms of following the proper wording of a song because of publishing reasons and such, such like [00:48:00] that.
[00:48:00] But then you have the FBI running around interviewing everybody in the world, and they didn't end up interviewing the lead singer. And I only found that out by asking the lead singer before he died. And he said, isn't that weird that they would spend two years, wasting taxpayer money on this silly idea that we were singing obscene lyrics, and they never asked me?
[00:48:23] And he talked about how this wasn't really a professional studio, even where they recorded it. And he said, they had like a microphone up above. I had to tip my head up and sing upwards. And he said, that puts a strain on your vocal chords. So, sometimes I was slurring some of the words.
[00:48:42] And he said, but, you know, those sorts of things, they never asked. And when they did talk to the band, they, as you would see if you read the book, I put the whole dialogue in there and they don't ask the right questions. So, this is interesting, after that gentleman [00:49:00] left the band, that's when the song became a big hit.
[00:49:04] Now they're touring and a different member of the band is singing the lead vocals. So the FBI doesn't even know that. So they're interviewing the guy that didn't, he's singing it live now, but he isn't the guy that sang the recording that they're having such a ruckus over and Indiana's governor tried to ban it.
[00:49:23] It was just really, to me an interesting story to outline and get out there and solve, just like the others in the book. And I guess I am fascinated, I was able to get all of the freedom of Information Act records of the FBI on that case. So that made it not only helpful, but comical, because there were so many sort of mistakes made in their investigation and all the money they spent on it, and the fact that, you know, if a letter came in from a parent in Atlanta, then the Atlanta office would have to open up an investigation and same all over the [00:50:00] country. So had all these different offices opening investigations over this one song?
[00:50:05] Doug Florzak: Didn't the FTC also open a case? I think.
[00:50:07] Jim: I think they did, yeah. And I think they concluded that they couldn't tell one way or another.
[00:50:13] Doug Florzak: And the real kicker was that there actually was a swear word in the song.
[00:50:18] Jim: Right. Doug, tell us what that swear word was.
[00:50:21] Doug Florzak: It was at the 55 second mark. So, our fans can go out, pull up the song on YouTube. I went and did this. I listened and it is there. You can hear it. So what happened is, Lynn Easton, who was the drummer, and I play in a band too, Jim, so I know what this is like. When you make a mistake, that's the first word that pops outta your mouth when you're practicing, although they were actually recording for real.
[00:50:48] Jim: Yeah.
[00:50:48] Doug Florzak: So, at the 55 second mark, you hear Lynn Eastman, who accidentally, instead of hitting the head of his drum, he ends up hitting the rim and he yells out, fuck. And it's [00:51:00] on the song.
[00:51:01] Jim: Plane as day.
[00:51:02] Doug Florzak: Yes. And in your book you talk about they listened to this song so much that they probably wore out the record. And this was a vinyl record in those days. And nobody there heard that word, even though that would've been something they could have latched onto, and used to justify, all the money that they spent.
[00:51:25] By the way, I have to really say your level of research is phenomenal on this. There is no stone left unturned, in this book. Even down to you did an analysis of what the cost was, what it cost our tax dollars for them to do this over this issue, which most people, I think would agree even today is not important. So, in 1965 dollars, you estimated it cost $8,050,000. In present day dollars [00:52:00] $62,903,783 in today's dollars.
[00:52:03] Jim: Isn't that terrible? What a waste. And again, thinking about if you put the headphones on, you'd hear that one word, the F word, and they listen to that thing upside down, backwards, multiple speeds in reverse. They never heard the word and they never interviewed the guy that recorded it, the vocalist. So, to me, that particular chapter, the thing I liked about it was how funny it was.
[00:52:31] Doug Florzak: Right. And, I came away with a theory after reading it the second time. You document a lot of the mistakes that the FBI made, but I'm thinking, taking on the viewpoint of the FBI agent who has to do this, and you're like, oh God, you know, it's like I wanna be out fighting real criminals and this is what Hoover wants me to go and do.
[00:52:51] So, I wonder, was it really that they made these mistakes or was it, I'll just do the bare minimum. I don't [00:53:00] care whether I'm talking to the real guy that was in the recording, and maybe they even caught the F word and they figured, I'm not gonna bother with this. I kind of have a theory that some of the missed things were just because they wanted to get through this as quickly as possible and get back to the real business of going after organized crime, bank robbers, and real criminals. So, I was wondering if you picked up any of that kind of feeling when you were doing your research.
[00:53:26] Jim: You know, I didn't, but I think that's a really good theory. That's really a great observation. I think I was so deep in the weeds of trying to check out what they were doing or what they omitted and trying to figure out, you know, why they were doing all this, that I didn't think of that. But, now having heard your theory, I absolutely think that may have had something to do with it.
[00:53:52] It was like, you know what? I like going after the mafia and that's fun, but. This is stupid. And, why do I have to [00:54:00] be the guy that, you know in my office that has to work on this silly song? That's a, that's an excellent observation, Doug.
[00:54:07] Doug Florzak: Well, it's a lot of fun. I love the whole book. I loved reading it even a second time, that particular chapter and, the chapter on the Nirvana album. That's my favorite Nirvana album, as Charles will attest.
[00:54:19] Jim: Yeah, well, I'll tell you, I'm working on co-producing a documentary about the making of Nirvana's Nevermind, right now.
[00:54:27] Charles: Cool.
[00:54:28] Jim: We're in the stages.
[00:54:29] Doug Florzak: I had another idea, have you ever considered looking into like Robert Johnson? Just all the kind supernatural mystery that's around Robert Johnson about how maybe he made a deal with the devil and that's how he got a lot of his success and the way he died and everything. I would think that would be an interesting subject.
[00:54:48] Jim: Right, and the way he supposedly came back after he had been out of town for a while and he was suddenly a much better player, hooked that up to making a deal, the devil. I have thought [00:55:00] of that in the past, and I even thought of it for this book, but I passed on it because I saw that other books had been written about him. And I thought, I don't wanna be book number five about Robert Johnson. I'm always trying to do things that no one had. I picked a different blues guy basically, chapter six.
[00:55:21] Doug Florzak: Yeah. And that's a great chapter too, 'cause I never even heard of him before.
[00:55:24] Jim: I like the fact that he had this sort of, or this record label came up with the idea to create multiple personalities for the same player so they could sell more of his records and such, and how that mythology grew with Charlie Patton. Yeah, I think just because other people had already written it and I'd seen there was a movie or a documentary too on Robert Johnson. You know, if I had been the first out of the box with it, I'd jump on it. That's always fascinated me. You know, it's hard enough finding documents, people, pictures, et [00:56:00] cetera, from things that are, even from the sixties or seventies now. 'Cause people die. Things get thrown away.
[00:56:06] My latest book, which I'm working on right now, is about a guitar that was found in John Lennon's loft of his childhood home in 1996 by Workman, doing some work for a widower who was now living in that home.
[00:56:21] And, he gives the guitar away to a couple of young men and they begin to search and never find out whether or not this guitar was connected to John Lennon. So, it wasn't a book or anything, it was just, they kind of stopped. They couldn't find the right people and all that.
[00:56:39] Well, I've talked to the Quarry Men, I've talked to John Lennon's sister, I've talked to just all types of people that were around at that time who are still alive, people he went to art college with, et cetera. And, finding old interviews with people who have died if they [00:57:00] touch on the topic, including John himself.
[00:57:02] So, I'm working through the research to indeed solve whether or not this 1950s Dallas Tuxedo solid electric guitar is connected to John Lennon. So that'll be my next book. But, it's never easy when you're dealing with something that took place, say in the fifties, sixties, seventies. Just, it keeps getting harder, 'cause unfortunately people are dying off. And The Beatle Who Vanished, I think I interviewed a total of about 60 people probably. And I would say half of them have died since I interviewed them, since the book came out.
[00:57:40] Charles: That book, Jim, I think he said in an interview, took you about 12 years to write that book.
[00:57:45] Jim: Yeah. I mean, because Jimmy Nichol was someone who never really wanted to be found. Once he left London, a year after his stint with The Beatles to reinvent his life, he really stopped communicating [00:58:00] with any of his fellow musician friends or producers that all knew him quite well in London.
[00:58:06] And they never saw or heard of him again until they read the book. But, it took me probably a year to find out that he went from London to Gutenberg, Sweden, and then spent two years there with a band, somewhat like The Ventures, but they're called the Spotnicks, instrumental Rock Band, and toured the world with them.
[00:58:26] And then, I found The Spotnicks and said, all right, well what happened to Jimmy then? We don't know. We think he went to Brazil. And I said, why do you think he went to Brazil? And they said, because he loved Bossa Nova music, and he heard that Brazil had the most beautiful women. I said, okay, well that was a dead end.
[00:58:46] He didn't go there. So each time I would have to spend another year or two to find out, you know, where did he go next? So, it did take a long time. And finally I was able to discover what [00:59:00] happened to him.
[00:59:00] Charles: Yeah. I'm glad you brought that book up because, just for the listeners, this guy, Jimmy Nichol, was in The Beatles for 13 days, filling in for Ringo, who, he had tonsillitis, Jim?
[00:59:12] Jim: Yeah, that's right. Nowadays wouldn't they just give you a pill and you'd be back out.
[00:59:17] Charles: Yeah, Like, go back, start playing the drums, man.
[00:59:19] Jim: Yeah. I mean, he didn't have to sing his one song.
[00:59:22] Charles: Right.
[00:59:22] Jim: Take him the anti-biotic, but instead he was in a hospital bed for two weeks.
[00:59:27] Charles: Yeah. I wanted to also ask you, 'cause I'd heard an interview with you that on your website, which correct me if I'm wrong, is rockandrolldetective.com.
[00:59:36] Jim: Right. And the, and is AND.
[00:59:39] Charles: Yeah. You gotta spell out AND, rock and roll. And at the time of the interview, which was a little while ago, you'd said you had signed copies of that book, the Beatle Who Vanished. Is that still the case?
[00:59:51] Jim: Yes, each of these books that we've been talking about, Mysteries In the Music: Case Closed has its own website and the Beatle Who Vanished, [01:00:00] there's thebeatlewhovanished.com, where people can order signed copies of that. And then musicmysterybook.com where they can order signed copies of Mysteries In the Music: Case Closed.
[01:00:14] Charles: Okay. 'Cause I heard you talk about that on an interview. Yeah, this guy Jimmy Nichol, he has a meteoric, rise. You're in the Beatles at their height of their powers, and then you're let go and, he just vanishes from one place to the next, as he goes along in life. I only listened to interviews of you talking about that, so I want to get the book, to read that 'cause they're turning it into a movie. Is that correct?
[01:00:40] Jim: Yes. So first of all, I updated the book. So, if people went to Amazon, the title would read The Beatle Who Vanished: 60th Beatles Anniversary Tour. But, if you want a signed copy, you just have to go to thebeatlewhovanished.com [01:01:00] and that's the copy you'll get, which is the new version, has an extra a hundred pages.
[01:01:04] It finally tells you what happened to Jimmy, what happened to the famous Gold Watch, which he no longer possesses. Talks about this clandestine woman Josephina, who ultimately led me to find out what happened to him. And yes, so the book, has been optioned to Ecosse, which is a independent British film studio in England that does really good work about British or United Kingdom related stories.
[01:01:32] In fact, they did Nowhere Boy, which is a really good biography of John Lennon's early life. Also the book is being turned into a documentary and that's being done by a Los Angeles company. And they're planning to do like a 90 minute documentary about Jimmy's life, that would probably be more, factually closer to the book because they don't need to use creative [01:02:00] license like you do in a biopic. And it would probably cover most of all the before The Beatles, during the Beatles and after the Beatles. Whereas it's hard to cram an entire book into a biopic, so you have to cut certain scenes and things.
[01:02:16] But, you know, as someone who loves to read and someone who loves to go to movies, especially rock and roll ones, usually what happens is I go watch the movie and then I go, oh, I gotta read the book. 'cause I know there's details I'm not getting, like the Elvis movie or something. So, makes you want to go back and read a full book about the person.
[01:02:35] Charles: Jim, I know we're coming up on time here, but one thing I wanted to ask you about, it's not a book, it's a recording that you, produced, Live at the Edgewater.
[01:02:46] Jim: Yeah.
[01:02:47] Charles: I was searching that up. First of all, they talk about Edgewater neighborhood in Chicago, and then there's an Edgewater hotel or something in Madison, Wisconsin. I was getting conflicting AI, you know, [01:03:00] the AI overview is always suspect.
[01:03:02] Jim: Yeah, I do remember the Edgewater neighborhood in Chicago when I lived down there, but up in Madison, Wisconsin, there is a famous hotel that I believe started in the 19, late 1940s called the Edgewater Hotel. And it's right on the edge of Lake Mendota in Madison. And it is still going strong today, but back in the late forties and early fifties, they hosted big bands of the day.
[01:03:33] So, jimmy Dorsey and, Woody Herman. I think Glen Miller might have popped through there at some point, but over a period of time, there were these recordings made live on the rooftop, of these various artists. And I'm friends with the family, and one day the dad, you know, we were somewhere, oh, I, I think we were at his house, in fact, and we were just having some cocktails, and I told him that I had produced other CDs, but they were [01:04:00] mostly spoken word.
[01:04:01] And he said, oh, well I have these, and he brought me this, it looked like a stack of pancakes, but they were 78 RPM acetates. So these were the masters of those concerts. And, as you can imagine, they were not, kept in pristine conditions. So they had scratches and whatnot. But, just at that time period in the early nineties, a place called Sonic Foundry came along with the ability to digitally clean up recordings. And so they started in, in Madison and I took 'em to them and they cleaned them up. And then I was able to produce clean copies of these, and there's two different Live at the Edgewater CDs. And, they were put out by I think a Seattle based company.
[01:04:49] Yeah, so those were fun to work on. The music's just amazing and it's kind of fun to hear the announcer come in and out. Sometimes I think he chats with the band leaders, that sort of thing. So [01:05:00] yeah, that was kind of fun. I know my parents really liked hearing those songs from their childhood.
[01:05:06] Charles: Anything else you'd like to chat about Jim, or plug or, I mean, we covered a lot of stuff today.
[01:05:11] Jim: No, I really have enjoyed talking to you guys about the live concert experiences and, thank you for bringing up my books. I just finished a documentary, but it's not out yet. It's called If These Walls Could Rock, and I think people will like that. We interviewed over 40 A-list, rock and rollers, who've all stayed at this one hotel called the Sunset Marquee in Los Angeles. And it's not only, you know, their stories of sex, drugs, and rock and roll and jumping off the roof into the pool, that kind of stuff, but also how these interesting musical collaborations cropped up between people who never knew each other, but were both, famous rock and rollers and started working together on things.
[01:05:57] I think one night Jeff Beck was playing with [01:06:00] someone and they were playing so loud it was disturbing the other guests, so they moved them into the basement, and then that gave 'em the idea to take this big basement space, and it's been turned into an award-winning music studio now.
[01:06:13] So people can come to that hotel, they can stay long term or short term work out in the basement. No one knows what they're doing. It's private. So there's a lot of interesting stories. Plus there's that father-son dynamic where the son's coming up and starts to have new ideas. And the dad who started the hotel's, like, this is the way we've always done it, son. So you have that whole storyline. It's a very interesting film, I think. It'll probably be on Netflix or one of those.
[01:06:42] Charles: Very cool. Yeah. We'll definitely keep an eye out for that. This has been really interesting and an honor and it was great having you on. Yeah, we'll keep an eye out for other things Go read some of Jim's books. You will definitely not be disappointed.
[01:06:56] Jim: Well, yeah, I just wanna thank both of you. It's a real [01:07:00] honor for me to be on your podcast and, I really enjoyed it. We covered a lot of fun topics today.
[01:07:05] Charles: Thanks again, Jim.
[01:07:07] Jim: Thanks for having me on. Bye-Bye.