In this episode of Seeing Them Live, Charles welcomes John Dominguez, co-founder and chief strategist of Songbird Collective, a Metaverse initiative promoting music, art, and cultural experiences. John discusses his first concert, an NWA show in 1989, shares unique concert memories including witnessing Kings of Leon at the Viper Room in 2003, and recalls the Tibetan Freedom Concert in 1996. He also talks about engaging with artists like Nels Cline and Joe Baiza and emphasizes the importance of supporting local music venues. The conversation highlights Songbird Collective's efforts to support musicians during the pandemic through virtual concerts.
In this conversation, John Dominguez, co-founder and chief strategist of Songbird Collective, discusses his extensive background in music and his initiative within the Metaverse aimed at creating immersive and collaborative environments for artists. Songbird Collective has facilitated over 1000 live concerts in the Metaverse, allowing artists to showcase their work, even during the pandemic when live music was largely inaccessible. The initiative has also opened new revenue streams for musicians through NFTs and virtual performances, providing a unique and innovative way to engage with global audiences.
He recalls the exciting early days of music exploration via the internet in the mid-90s, highlighting moments when he discovered influential music essays and participated in emerging online music communities. One of his notable memories includes attending his first concert, an NWA show in 1989, where he experienced both the thrill and cultural impact of live hip-hop music. He reminisces about various concert experiences, including attending Kings of Leon at Johnny Depp's Viper Room and the Troubadour in Los Angeles, and describes the unique atmosphere of historical music venues. He also recalls his experience attending the Tibetan Freedom Concert in 1996.
Dominguez also values personal interactions with musicians, sharing stories about his early online exchanges and meetings with avant-garde musicians Nels Cline and Joe Baiza. Despite the modern shift towards digital music consumption, Dominguez advocates for the irreplaceable magic of live performances and encourages music enthusiasts to support local independent shows. In wrapping up, he stresses how vital it is for fans to support smaller live music venues, highlighting how these spaces provide essential platforms for artists and memorable experiences for audiences. Dominguez's dedication to music culture and innovation through Songbird Collective exemplifies the evolving landscape of live music and virtual experiences.
BANDS: Aerosmith, Beastie Boys, Ben Steller, Creeper Lagoon, Dr. Dre, Fontaine's DC, Ice Cube, Jet, John Lee Hooker, Killers, Kings of Leon, Mud Honey, New Jack's Swing, No Doubt, NWA, Oasis, On the Speakers, Ornette Coleman, Pavement, Pixies, Porno for Pyros, Rage Against the Machine, Smashing Pumpkins, Sonic Youth, Stooges, Tribe Called Quest
VENUES: Celebrity Theater, Constellation Room, Castaic Lake, El Rancho Grande, Johnny Depp's Viper Room, Observatory, Rainbow, Roxy, Salt Shed, Troubadour, Mr. T's Bowl
[00:00:00] Charles: Our guest today is John Dominguez. John is the co-founder and chief strategist of Songbird Collective. The Songbird Collective is a community focused initiative within the Metaverse that emphasizes music, art, and cultural experiences. It often aims to create immersive environments where artists can showcase their work, collaborate, and engage with audiences in an innovative way.
[00:00:26] Participants in the collective may create virtual concerts, art exhibitions, and interactive experiences, leveraging technology to enhance artistic expression and foster connections among creators and fans. John is also an avid vinyl collector with a deep appreciation for music history and culture. John, welcome to Seeing Them Live.
[00:00:49] John: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
[00:00:51] Charles: Thanks for taking time to chat with us today. You know, as we usually do, we, we go in chronological order talking about concerts in general, but you have some creative endeavors that you had done along the way. So I thought maybe we could sprinkle a few of those in throughout, um, your chronology of, of concerts and such, if that sounds okay.
[00:01:12] John: Absolutely. I kind of live side by side. So yeah, definitely.
[00:01:15] Charles: So, you had written on our guest form, um, your first concert was this NWA show in 1989. And for people who don't know, they're a hip-hop group, formed in Compton, California. They were active between 87 and 91, I guess. And notable members include Ice Cube and Dr. Dre. Yeah, I just wanted to maybe chat about that a little bit. It was at the Celebrity Theater in Anaheim, California.
[00:01:44] John: Yeah, the famous, celebrity theater that is, uh, is in the round. So it actually was a rotating stage in the middle of the, uh, in the middle of venue, which is pretty, pretty cool. First real concert.
[00:01:55] Charles: Yeah, you went with some friends, right?
[00:01:58] John: I, did, I had, I had a group of friends. So, so when, so when I grew up and sort of around that time, like I was very much into R&B and hip hop rap, like during that period in high school, I had not really gotten into a lot of rock music, which kind of came a few years later. Growing up, my parents were very much like. Uh, fans of like soul music, like Motown stacks. So that's my entryway is kind of R&B, uh, like New Jack's Swing, R&B that led into rap. And then, uh, yeah, this group of friends that I had at the, uh, the very white suburban high school that I went to, um, it was a very small group of friends that were into hip hop.
[00:02:36] And this is the famous show at the celebrity theater that NWA actually got banned from playing in LA during that tour. So they moved it from LA to Orange County. And, uh, I jumped at the opportunity to go to that show. And it was, uh, it was for, for, for a young suburban kid, it was both very exciting and somewhat frightening because a lot of, um, fans from LA came down to, uh, to Orange County and, uh, we got to, uh, enjoy it with them, but it was, uh, it was quite the experience.
[00:03:05] Charles: Yeah, you were like 17 years old. I think you said.
[00:03:08] John: I was 17 years old. Yeah, I think the, uh, the most frightening part was just walking from the parking lot to the venue. Like, there was a lot going on in that parking lot. You know, I just wasn't, I wasn't around culturally. My parents were my parents grew up in South LA, but, uh, I had not really, uh, seen, seen a lot of that culture.
[00:03:26] Charles: That's an Interesting point. The parking lot, depending on the band you're going to see, very, very interesting. I, you know, of course, immediately think of the Grateful Dead. You know, that was a whole world to itself, the parking lot. There were lots of things going on in that parking lot, and I remember going the first time, like, holy cow, what, what is going on here?
[00:03:49] John: Yeah, the tailgating experience, like, prior to concerts, it's kind of gone away. I think it's still active and sort of the, the sports realm where there's a lot of tailgating, but like my first experience with something like that would, would have been the first Lalapalooza where actually I went to the second night.
[00:04:04] I couldn't afford to get a ticket. So, we actually just paid for parking and you could hear it from the parking lot. So, we just stayed in the parking lot for the entire day. But, uh, I can imagine the Grateful Dead and parking lot experience must've been amazing.
[00:04:16] Charles: Yeah. Maybe I was still in high school, maybe my senior year and I treated it like, of course, you know, like any other concert. And when I got out to the show and in the parking lot I was way out of my element, you know, like with my Doobie Brothers jersey on and stuff, it was very eye-opening, let's say. John, like you'd mentioned, you know, maybe like six years later or so in 95, then after this, uh, your initial experience, I'm, I'm sure you went to loads of other concerts after that, but you, you'd mentioned you started doing some research of music history and I was just wondering what you meant by that and what did it entail?
[00:04:55] John: So I was really lucky in, in 95, like heading into 96, I got a job, I wasn't working. I, sorry. I wasn't, I wasn't a student at Cal state Fullerton at the time, but I got a job through a friend working at their computer store, in the bookstore. And, at the time it was, these were the, the, the early years of the internet, but on college campus, they had T1 lines, which were like super-fast, like internet connections. And, I had a friend, Jason, who was very much into Avant Garde jazz and punk rock and, um, he would turn me on to a lot of music. He worked in the bookstore as well, but when I started searching for where was anybody writing about music, like during the slow periods at the bookstore, and there were a couple of things I remember coming across.
[00:05:36] One was, a little bit later was Mike Watt's first web page, which it still, it Still looks exactly the same as it did, like, 25 years ago. But also, that's when I first came across Lester Bangs, uh, sort of famous essay free jazz, punk rock, which was about the early 87 late 70s, early 80s.
[00:05:57] Noelle scene in New York and he really like, he put it side by side with the bravery that jazz artists showed, um, like Ornette Coleman, and it really opened my eyes, and I kind of just took a deep dive into anything that I could find that people were writing about music at the time. Started collecting all those pages of, of essays that I could find online.
[00:06:16] Charles: And we'll talk about this in a minute when we jump to 03, but you started to write a book in 03, right?
[00:06:23] John: Little bit earlier than that. Yeah, I started kind of put together the skeleton or the sort of bones of the idea of what I wanted to write. But I, I dove into it, like, all through the early part of the 2000s, kind of on and off, upon going back to it when I was inspired and then losing focus more than more times than I could count.
[00:06:41] Charles: Yeah, it's hard to write a book. And yeah, focus is always a problem with everybody. Right, especially doing something like that. Hopefully, one day you'll put it together.
[00:06:51] John: Yeah, yeah. I feel like it might even be more valid now. Sort of the argument that the roots of punk rock are actually rooted in free jazz and earlier than, than art rock, and the early years of punk rock. I mean, that seems to be where the narrative starts. You know, the Stooges or, or, um, Dublin Underground in terms of, like, cultural influence. But I don't think it was until I read that Lester Bang's article and then later, I would hear Iggy talk about Ornette Coleman. Some other artists talk about Ornette and that to me is, uh, is really the beginning, but it has a lot to do with the inspiration spark of music.
[00:07:27] Charles: Yeah. That sounds like a really interesting connection for sure. We'll stay in 03, I guess, for a bit, uh, under your best concert, you mentioned a couple, but with the same band Right. So, we're talking about Kings of Leon. Okay. And the first time I guess you see them, well, they had released an EP, I guess, in February called Holy Roller Novocain. And then in August, they released, of 03 as well, Youth and Young Manhood.
[00:08:01] John: Manhood, yeah.
[00:08:02] Charles: But, the first time you see them, which is really, I'm literally looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this, is at Johnny Depp's Viper room?
[00:08:10] John: Yeah. At the Viper Room. Yeah.
[00:08:12] Charles: What was that like? Okay, I, I, and I don't know if this is accurate because I, I guess maybe there's other versions of Viper room now, maybe. The capacity is about 250 people. Is that, does that sound about right?
[00:08:23] John: At the time it was small, And, I don't, I don't know if it's expanded at all. I think it's still a relatively tiny club. There's certainly no sort of larger shows that happen there, except, you know, um, maybe a band will come through and want to do like a warm up gig, but it's still relatively small, small club. Yeah, but that Kings of Leon, that first Kings of Leon show at the Viper Room. It was, um, my, my girlfriend at the time who later became my wife and is now my ex-wife. So, this was during the retro rock period of the early 2000s and I think everyone will kind of remember when all of those sort of bands came out The Strokes and, Jet, bands like that. One person who would comment often about those bands is Noel Gallagher from Oasis and I was buying a lot of British music magazines during that time to say, because a lot of them would come with CDs. So, you'd buy the magazine. You get the CD. It was like a sampler CD. And then you go home and listen to the music that you just couldn't get in the United States. Like, unless you wanted to pay an arm and a leg for import CDs. And Noel Gallagher mentioned that EP, Holy Roller Novocain, and he said that Kings of Leon were his favorite band right now.
[00:09:34] Well, at that time, like Jimi Hendrix, they had to go to England to get any press, because they couldn't get any in the U.S., and then they came back to the U.S. and were doing, like, small club dates. And, uh, just as I was, like, pondering like, I wonder when I can go see them. I jumped online and found out that they were playing a show at the Viper room. Now, for all I know, it had just popped up, that they just decided to do some sort of warm up gig. And my, um, my girlfriend, I think we might have just gotten engaged, we decided, let's just go down there. I'm like, if we can't get in because likely it's going to be sold out. It's going to sell out fast. We'll just, we'll just hang out and just be fun just to be around it.
[00:10:15] And so we went down there. Sold out, but the doorman said, hey, why don't you guys just go wait in line? Just go wait behind the velvet rope right there. That's just outside of the Viper room. And we were the first people there in line and, uh, slowly, but surely about 50 to 75 people gathered around the block in that line and you could hear Kings of Leon playing, like, when the show started, and they were about 3 songs in and people were yelling at that poor doorman, and they were giving them a hard time. Like, people were because people were coming out and they're like, come on, people are coming out, like, what's going on?
[00:10:52] AndI still remember the look on his face. Like, he finally lost it. Now, I didn't say a word and I was right there, like, we're the first person in line. And he looked and he said, that's it. You and you pointed at me and my girlfriend, you guys go in, you haven't said anything all night. And I think we might have been the only people who got let in that night. And I was so damn excited that I completely passed by the ticket booth and started to run upstairs. And then I heard somebody yell, hey, come back, you still have to pay. But that place was packed and we caught 3 or 4 songs, but it was pretty magical.
[00:11:23] Charles: Yeah, cause there Was a, obviously a famous or famous place and famous people would, would hang out there all the time. Did you see it? Were you like shoulder to shoulder with Jennifer Aniston or somebody?
[00:11:36] John: Surprisingly, we did not see anybody that evening and I think it might have just been the excitement of getting in there. Getting like getting into the um, what was happening like just everybody moving around and of course, these are days before cell phones. So, everybody was like hyper focused on what was happening on stage. It surprises me because in those days, I'd see a lot at concerts is, is Angelo Moore from Fishbone that dude seemed to be at every concert I went to during that period but uh, no, I didn't unfortunately I didn't see anybody famous at that show.
[00:12:06] Charles: Did you go there often or was that like maybe the one, just the one time you were there?
[00:12:11] John: It was one of two times I went there, I saw a band called On the Speakers, I think, there once. It was a offshoot of a really cool band called Creeper Lagoon, but I think that's the only other time I saw, I went to the Viper Room.
[00:12:25] Charles: Cause then later in that year, you saw Kings of Leon again at the Troubadour. Well, that's in Hollywood, I guess.
[00:12:33] John: Yeah, West Hollywood.
[00:12:34] Charles: It says the capacity is about 500 people, and I saw that Rolling Stone magazine named it one of the best clubs, rock clubs. So you want to talk about that? You, you'd mentioned there, seeing them, they were so young and raw, I think is how you described it.
[00:12:49] John: Yeah, I mean, anybody who's a fan of rock music, you have to sort of make a pilgrimage to West Hollywood and the Troubadour like once in your life, it's kind of the club to go to, uh, for anybody who's interested in music history or culture. Like you just, I mean, you feel the magic, you feel the magic in there.
[00:13:06] And then famously in that, that recent movie about Elton John, Rocket Man, they shot a scene, and I mean, the club looks exactly like the club. I'm sure they used most, you know, most of the club, but it hasn't changed. I mean, from, from sort of the early, like, when the Eagles played there and other bands, it's, it's pretty much the same club, same bar, like, you know, you can sit there and have a shot of Southern comfort like Janice used to and just really enjoy it.
[00:13:31] But yeah, so at that time, if I remember the history correctly, it Kings of Leon, on the bass player, who was one of the cousins or brothers. They're all related. All the guys in the band. Yeah. He was only I think he had just turned 17 when they went on that tour and they looked very raw and young and there was that vintage quality of retro rock bands during that time.
[00:13:54] So, it certainly felt like being able to see like Aerosmith or somebody like that and like a small club, like, that was, that was the feeling I got. It was a very old school kind of rock, dirty rock feeling.
[00:14:05] Charles: Yeah. That sounds cool. That's funny you mentioned how young they were. Last night, I happened to see this band called Ben Steller. They were opening for Fontaine's DC at the Salt Shed, and the guys in Ben Steller, I mean, I have to look it up, but I mean, some of them look like, you know, they were, they could have been in high school. Like you were saying, you know, they were very, very young, but very, very good. They were, they were fantastic. They, they put on a great show, but yeah, it's amazing, band that young, what they can produce like that. I thought it was really incredible watching them last night.
[00:14:41] John: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Charles: So, any, anything else to add to those shows, John?
[00:14:46] John: I mentioned some of the retro rock bands like the Band Jet, Australian Band. I think, I think that there's at least one, that one song that everybody knows that that gets used in movies a lot now, but they were the opening band for that night, and that was a, that was pretty cool too.
[00:14:58] It was, it was very much like a, like a, like a document, like a perfect document of the retro rock period. Again, like just the way they dressed the music. There was one thing is the one, one show to experience during that time. I, I definitely put it up there with any sort of cultural relic or moment from that period.
[00:15:14] Charles: Wow. Yeah. Um, I'll have to check it out. I was actually in Hollywood over the summer and now I'm bummed that I didn't check it out, The Troubadour. But I'll have to put that on my list when I go back one of these days.
[00:15:25] John: Yeah, the troubadour, um, and the Roxy definitely, uh, if you, if you go to the Roxy, even if you don't go see a show there, take a little trip to the rainbow, which is like right next door. The bar and restaurant. There's a lot of rock history in that place. And if you go upstairs, at the rainbow, there's a, which is often closed during the day, but you can still walk up there and there's no like guards or anybody that'll stop you. There's a little, what looks like a little tiny clubhouse that you can walk up and that's where the, that was the layer of the Hollywood Vampires. It was like the little private club of John Lennon, Alice Cooper, Harry Nielsen, Ringo Starr. Those guys would go up there and drink in this little tiny, like, hot little clubhouse.
[00:16:05] And there's a lot of cool rock stories about that place. But if you, uh, if you're quiet enough and you don't make any ruckus, you can. Just passed pass over the velvet rope and just go up there and have a drink. Just hang out up there.
[00:16:17] Charles: Wow. That, that sounds really cool. I was thinking we could rewind a little bit. I think you jokingly had written this down on the guest form under most surprising was this Tibetan Freedom Concert in 1996. It sounded very serious. You got hit in the face with a frozen jug of water or something.
[00:16:37] John: I got it. I got hit in the side of the head during the Rage Against the Machine performance. I did. I was just, turn my head for one second to look around. And when I turned back, like, it was just like a millisecond away from me and, uh, hit me right in the head and knocked me, I think, cold for at least a second because the next thing I remember is one of my friends pulling me up and, uh, and that was, uh, that was it. I just kind of got right back into it. I don't know. I probably should have taken some time, but, uh, yeah, just joking. Like, like, that was one of my, like, most surprising experiences at a show.
[00:17:08] Charles: That's a big surprise. Yeah, there, there were a lot of cool bands there too, Tribe Called Quest, Beastie Boys, Sonic Youth, John Lee Hooker, Smashing Pumpkins. So that sounds like quite a, quite a lineup.
[00:17:22] John: Yeah, quite a day. It was, uh, it was quite the crowd. I mean, there was a lot of kind of like, uh, walking around to, I think, um, we're also a lot of sort of like booths set up to learn about what was happening in Tibet and, uh, to the Tibetan people. And, it was definitely like one of those like cultural moments that, um, I was very happy to be a part of, but yeah, the music was great. Rage Against the Machine were probably the kind of standout. bands of that day.
[00:17:48] Charles: Yeah. And I was reading, there's like a hundred thousand people in attendance.
[00:17:53] John: Yeah.
[00:17:54] Charles: That's incredible.
[00:17:55] John: And it was warm and muggy that day too. It was very, very humid.
[00:17:59] Charles: Yeah. That's, that's a lot of people. But then, uh, below that, which I think on a more surprising, serious, surprising note, you had spoke about meeting a couple of musicians. I don't know if it was at the same time or at a different point in time.
[00:18:15] John: Actually, around the same time in Tibetan Freedom Concert, maybe a year or two later. The first person, I think, well, the two people I mentioned there, uh, Joe Bison and Nels Kline. The Nels Kline, meeting him is very cool. Again, like, kind of an early Internet experience. Probably remember AOL chat rooms. Like the, bulletin boards that people would go on to. An AOL chat room, Nels Klein used to kind of hang out in some of the conversations about Avant Garde jazz and rock, and I got his email address. He was very nice to give me his email address and I emailed him a question about a Japanese composer called Toru Takamitsu.
[00:18:54] And it was, again, it was like one of these cool experiences, where at the time, celebrities and musicians, I don't think we're overwhelmed with email. And so, he gave me his brother, Alex Klein, he gave me his brother's email and said, I don't know this answer, but I think Alex, so it was really cool experience and then fast forward like a year later and I met him like on a few occasions, um, like after shows and he was just always so cool to talk to about jazz and rock and, and these, these pre Wilco days. But he was this really cool guy to, to kind of talk to about music.
[00:19:25] Charles: Yeah, that's a unique opportunity. Like you were saying, they're maybe people are more willing to give out their email address and such, you know, prior to what things are like nowadays.
[00:19:38] John: Yeah. And that was, uh, that was a, that was sort of a nice surprise as to kind of feel like it was making kind of personal connections. And Joe Baiza, I met him, uh, a few years later in a club in Long Beach, and he was playing, and after the show he came and sat at the bar. I Mean, for, for as influential as he is as a guitarist for a band Saccharine Trust, especially, early SST band, he's a regular guy. He works in a warehouse and he has for years. He helps distribute art pieces, shipping art pieces around the country. So, he's a regular, like, regular day job, but, uh, we had a long conversation about, uh, about jazz and punk rock and, um, it was just very, very inspiring. It's what surprised me most is how long he was willing to talk to me about just entertain my questions about punk rock, especially.
[00:20:26] Charles: No, they must have been thoughtful questions, you know?
[00:20:30] John: Yeah, stuff that I think there's like a handful of people who could do to probably answer. Um, and Henry Rollins is, is always busy answering those questions. I don't know if I could ever get to the front of the queue. That's, that's one guy that I was like, damn, like, he's so lucky. He actually gets to just go directly to the sources and ask the questions that I always want to ask. But, it's cool to it's cool to hear him or see him.
[00:20:51] Charles: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that would be awesome. Then before we started recording, we were chatting, you know, after you had time to think about it, which is usually what happens with people, um, after they fill out the, the guest form, there were some other shows you said you would like to mention or just in general, like a certain period of time. Where live music was kind of forming your taste in music and such.
[00:21:14] John: Yeah, you'll obviously remember this, because of some of the reference to some of the shows that you've attended or the time period. But like, there were a couple of places that you'd find out that your friends were going to shows. One was in the Ticket Master line. Like, just you find your friends there. And then also, because we didn't have cell phones, you know, there were maybe like, one or two people that we would talk to before we went to a show. And then at that time, we used to meet at a coffee shop called Cafe Nova before we headed into Hollywood.
[00:21:41] And, during that time, man, between 1991 and 1994 probably, that was just a absolutely magical period for, for live music. Like, you know, before, uh, before it kind of got eaten up by high Ticket Master service fees and things like that. A thing called the New Music Seminar in San Diego. That was the first time I saw No Doubt and Rage Against the Machine and, and saw Rage Against the Machine at a party, like, a night later in San Diego is also where I saw Smashing Pumpkins for the first times where I saw Pixies for the first time. There used to be a club that if you were hanging out in San Diego, you go across the border in Mexico and Tijuana and it was called El Rancho Grande and a lot of times bands after they played San Diego, they would go down to Tijuana and they'd play shows there.
[00:22:25] And that's where I saw like, Pornhub for Pyros and I think I saw Pixies there if I remember correctly. But, um, in 1992, that was the famous Sonic Youth, Castaic Lake show, and that probably ranks up there with that Kings of Leon show is one of the most magical nights I've ever had a show that was Sonic Youth, Pavement, and Mud Honey. And in between the acts Kurt Cobain came out with an acoustic guitar, and he was just playing songs and I think you can, you can still find video on YouTube of those shows. But, there was a lot happening culturally, like, during that period to, like, that was the lead up to maybe just after the lead up to the election in 92.
[00:23:02] So all the Rock the Boat stuff, and all the sort of political messages during, uh, during that tour and Sonic Youth's album Dirty, which had a lot of sort of political messages within it. I mean, for, for somebody sort of forming opinions and my formative years, that was, that show, outdoor show, the backdrop, the bands. That was, uh, that was an amazing night.
[00:23:25] Charles: Yeah. It sounds, sounds like it. That, that sounds incredible.
[00:23:28] John: Yeah.
[00:23:30] Charles: John, did you want to, uh, maybe start talking about the Songbird Collective that you're part of?
[00:23:36] John: Yeah. So, um, my partner, Shelly and I, during the pandemic, of course, being really big fans of live music and losing live music during the pandemic, largely, we had taken a dive into crypto and NFTs and Metaverse, all things Metaverse at the time, and we came across a Metaverse called Decentraland. And we then got involved with a project called The Rock and Unicorns, a couple of guys outta Switzerland. And one of them, his brother was a professional musician who lost, of course, his livelihood during the pandemic.
[00:24:08] And so we partnered with them to open a virtual venue and Decentraland and started with one show with a artist who is a French guitar player, also a bass player, and is now living in Ireland and he wanted to do a show. And what started with one show in October of 2021, we've now done over 1000 live concerts in the Metaverse. Since that time globally, I lost count of how many countries and how many artists have participated, but, of course, never a replacement for actual live shows, but what it did is it gave people time to hone their craft and be able to make some money and engage with a global audience during a time when live music was shut down. So, we're incredibly proud of what we've been able to do with the, with the True Band Room.
[00:24:57] Charles: Yeah. That sounds like a really cool way to just learn about new music and such. So that when you see people and bands in this environment, then maybe you look out for them when they come to town and see them in person.
[00:25:12] John: Yeah, it feels a bit old school. It feels like hearing from your friends that there's this band that you heard about and you just want to check it out. But in this case, you actually get to hear it from a global audience. You can hear somebody in Decentraland talking about a local band that they have in Japan, or in one case, Thailand, and then get to see him, get to see him on stage.
[00:25:33] Now, of course, you're not in the club, but there's the opportunity to interact with friends who are online, enjoying the show at the same time. And actually, live interaction with the band as well, which is something that you don't often get to do within real life shows, but yeah, it's been a very rewarding, fun experience.
[00:25:49] Charles: Yeah. Cause we interviewed this guy, Roger Mairlot. He's referred to as the gig slut. He goes to shows every night, at least one. He has a record for like six shows in one evening at six different venues.
[00:26:04] John: Oh, my God.
[00:26:05] Charles: Yeah, he's quite well known in London in the music scene. But he, if he's deciding between seeing a band that night and one's from London and the other one, like you're saying is from Japan or something, he'll see the one from Japan because he doesn't know if they'll ever come back through. So, he has to make some of these tough decisions sometimes. But you're describing is a way to see these bands from far flung locales that you probably otherwise wouldn't see them come through your town necessarily, right?
[00:26:35] John: Yeah, certainly. I think a lot of bands now, especially with independent music, right? Like, a lot of musicians have kind of taken control of their business, versus going through the traditional channels of hopefully getting notice, hopefully getting signed to a label that has some promotional money to put behind gigs or anything, any type of promotion and for independent musicians, if they are in control of their art and they're deciding where and when they want to play, it provides them an opportunity to play a no cost gig where they can sell either their NFTs, either digital music or their actual physical music, and engage with that audience. So, it certainly opened up a commerce avenue that was not available previously.
[00:27:19] Charles: That's cool. And how do bands, do they find you or. Do you guys go after certain bands or how does that work?
[00:27:26] John: We used to reach out and then after we got known and we got flooded with requests. But now we're kind of got back to a period where a lot of bands are back on the road and playing gigs. So, yeah, we're always looking for new people. We provide an extensive onboarding experience for bands and musicians and artists, so that they kind of understand what they're getting themselves into and, and how to make the most of it. And, uh, again, there's no charge at all. We kind of show them from A to Z, how to really maximize the potential and how they can monetize the experience as well. So yeah, kind of both ways. We still do get recommendations from people and still do a lot of outreach as well.
[00:28:06] Charles: So if I'm in a band, how would I find you guys? How would I go about getting in contact with you.
[00:28:11] John: Yeah, so the group that works with us in Switzerland, the project Is called the Rocking Uniquehorns. But the best way to get a hold of us is through my partner Shelly's Twitter account, which is a teenybod@teenybot.com. So, T, E, N, Y, B, O, D, on X or Twitter. And, she'll get you initially signed up and then we'll find time to get you onboarded.
[00:28:35] Charles: That's really cool. Yeah, we had Shelly on. Yeah, there's so many facets to how she was describing this whole process and what bands can really create as far as even their own tickets stubs and things like that and NFTs, which I'm not going to pretend like I know too much about that, but she was showing me some examples of it. It was really interesting.
[00:28:57] John: The NFTs as kind of like ticket, like ticket stubs, like there was something, you know, again, both of us being fans of live music, we knew we wanted to do something that was a sort of a low-cost entry point and sort of a memento of the shows that they were attending. And so, we were lucky enough to develop with the with the guys in Switzerland, a proprietary attendance token, that everybody gets when they come to shows as long as they have a digital wallet attached while they're logged in. But, yeah, it doesn't replace the photo books of old ticket stubs that I think a lot of us, a lot of us have, but, certainly nice to have something to remember the shows by.
[00:29:31] Charles: Yeah. Especially, you know, when you go back years later, it serves as a marker, placeholder, what have you, when that event happened and, sometimes your memory's a little foggy. You need a something to help you remember who you were with or the band or what have you. So that, I love that idea.
[00:29:47] John: Yeah. You know, that's, that's funny that you mentioned that I'll just quickly, like, I was having a conversation with somebody about so much video now at concerts, like people recording and then putting out on YouTube, like that same night, like, I just want to see Pole a couple of weeks ago.
[00:30:00] And, that night, I was watching clips of that show, but, um, whether or not it was, we felt kind of bad that we couldn't find, you A lot of clips of, like, old shows we went to in, like, the early nineties and, and we were both of the same opinion that, like, it'd be cool to see some video from those shows.
[00:30:15] But at the same time, I think all of us have invented stories from the shows we went to that, like, whether they're true or false actually does not matter at this point. Like, I don't know. Like, I always tell the story that at that Sonic Youth show, I saw my friend, Matt McKenzie, stage dive. And, I think it was Matt McKinsey. I think it was a long lean guy who looked just like him. But, for me, that story will always be true.
[00:30:35] Charles: Exactly. I mean, I tell lots of stories at concerts and stuff. You'd mentioned Lester Bangs earlier. I think there's a famous quote, which I probably won't get it right. But he said something like, in rock and roll there are no facts, just myths. So, these stories you tell to yourself and then years later, you're reading something on Wikipedia or watching a video of the show and you're like, oh, well, yeah, maybe, maybe my story's a little uh, inaccurate here, you know?
[00:31:04] John: But that's great. I think that's one of the beautiful things, especially about like a lot of rock stories that you hear. I think the facts live alongside mythology and there's few things anymore. Because everything is fact checked, everything is online and easily accessible, but like, the American road, like road trips. I think we, we, we've all at some point mythologized what happens on the road and what we've all done on the road, but certainly rock music, the same stories live there as well. It's great though. I love that. I love the mythology of all of it. It's just as cool as firsthand accounts.
[00:31:34] Charles: For sure. And you'd mentioned how these videos get posted, and yeah, how you wish that bands would have done more of that or even hired a crew or something, because I know, back in the day, if you got caught with, especially a video camera, oh my God, you'd get thrown out of the place, I'm sure.
[00:31:50] But, my daughter is a huge Harry Styles fan. And he'll play somewhere like when he was touring in Europe. And, three hours later, they have it up on YouTube, like the entire concert either stitched together from individual fans from the songs, as they progress, or if somebody's just shot like, an hour and a half video.
[00:32:12] I just wish more bands would invest. I know it's expensive to have a film crew with you, but I think more people are doing it these days. Just to have some kind of a record of that time period, that era, to capture something professionally would be ideal.
[00:32:29] John: Yeah.
[00:32:31] Charles: Cause yeah, then you just have to go on your memory, which as you were just saying, isn't always that bad, but, you know, it's cool to go back and watch something that you were at.
[00:32:41] John: Yeah, I think festivals, especially, anybody who I talk to is going to a festival, I'm like, you really need to disconnect from your phone while you're there because, festivals, it's not the greatest place to see bands like the sound is usually shitty or bad. And, not everybody there's hyper focused on the band. They're just having their own experience and I think festivals, the experience of just being there is probably just as important.
[00:33:03] And, at festivals, they do have all the equipment and they're usually live streaming or you'll see the clips after. So, I wish people at festivals at least would disconnect from their devices during those shows.
[00:33:12] Charles: Yeah. I've been doing less and less of that. I like to snap a picture just so I, I go back, I know what the musicians were wearing and what the setting looked like and stuff. But, no you're right to pay more attention to what's going on with your eyes off of the screen is definitely a better experience, and you had mentioned festivals, in general, maybe as your most disappointing concert experience. Is that like more of a recent thing, John?
[00:33:40] John: From a live music experience standpoint, festivals are probably the most disappointing. I leave and I'm like, eh, I'm exhausted, I didn't really get to experience the band the way that I wanted to, unless in some cases where I was actually able to get up relatively close, like, the third Lollapalooza, I think I was like, right up against the fence. Yeah, I just don't like it because, you know, there's so many bands on the bill that you're going to get a mix of people who are just fans of one band or people who are fans of kind of what's curated for the festival. Maybe all of them. Like, there was a great festival called This Ain't No Picnic.
[00:34:16] That was a lot of like-minded, punk rock bands, kind of fringy punk rock bands. I just enjoyed doing that. But there's too much disconnect from the music and people are there to take drugs and get drunk and you're dealing with that element as well. And I just, yeah, I just, I don't, I, I'd rather be in a club. I'd rather be in a club with people who I know are there to see the band and experience the music. I mean, they're cool cultural moments that I'm glad I didn't miss, but I don't really see attending a festival as a music experience as much as I do a club experience.
[00:34:48] Charles: Now, what I did notice though, I went to Lollapalooza 2024. We were there primarily to see The Killers, but we did see other bands, but the one thing I noticed, John, overall, as a, I was definitely one of the older people in the crowd, this younger crowd, they're more chilled out.
[00:35:05] I did see handful of people that were heavily intoxicated, but overall, like you'd mentioned, you know, getting hit on the side of your head with a frozen jug of water. I mean, I know what you're talking about, like, cause I would go to heavy metal shows or, you know M80s are blowing off over your head.
[00:35:21] You know, somebody's throwing these things in the crowd and it's just crazy. I don't know, it just seemed like it was more civil. I just think of these experiences I've had over the last 40 years, and, I did read later that I believe in Lollapalooza, there was only nine arrests out of all of those people that attended over four days.
[00:35:42] But you're right, it's brutal. I mean, at the end of it, I felt like I was run over by a truck. It was 90 degrees. It was humid and, you know, you start at noon and you leave at 10 at night and, if you're there for the long haul, it's quite a physical challenge. At least it was for me.
[00:35:58] John: Well, you know, the excitement of young people and I, I don't want to sort of discount that I know that they're excited at these shows, even though it is a much more chill environment. I think a lot of that is just kind of overexposure too. If you're going to see a band a month from now, and they're on tour chances are, you can watch video of every show leading up to the show that you're attending.
[00:36:18] There was a time when seeing that band live was a local experience. Like, that's your shot. Like, you're going to see them live. And I think that the buildup was much more. It was definitely much more exciting. And, you know, in some cases you didn't really have, I mean, you might've just purchased the album. There was no streaming. So, either somebody had the album or you just purchased it and maybe you just listened to it.
[00:36:39] I remember going to see bands where I would buy the album the day before, and just listen to it nonstop so that I knew the songs before I got to the show. I just think there's a lot of overexposure. It's just like traveling now, right? Like, you can see videos and everybody knows the little pockets of places from the internet anywhere in the world where before they were much more exclusive and private and exciting because you were discovering something and I think there's a little bit less discovery.
[00:37:05] Charles: That's a good point. I've heard older musicians, Roger Daltrey from The Who in particular complaining about the set lists that are available and it takes all of the surprise or spontaneity out of the show because everybody knows what songs they're going to play. It's a good point, John. I would agree with you on that.
[00:37:22] John: That's interesting. I never thought about that, but I do remember that I saw Paul Weller once from The Jam and he was doing a solo acoustic set and he played A Town Called Malice. Like the most massive like jam song and, everybody just went crazy. I could imagine that there would be like, a lot of I know it's coming, I know it's coming because I've seen his set list on the Internet. So I know he's going to play it, but we were all like, shocked and surprised that he played that jam song. So that was definitely cool. So I agree with Roger.
[00:37:49] Charles: John, as we come up towards the end of time, is there anything you'd like to add or plug or maybe another concert you want to talk about?
[00:37:58] John: No, I think I'll stick with the theme of this show and I will say that anybody who is listening, man, live music's back. And, if you think, well, you know, I'm priced out of it, you're thinking about Oasis shows and stuff like that and how expensive all that stuff is. There are local clubs that are still around. Chain Reaction in Anaheim, California is still around, the Observatory, which is a little bit bigger, but they always have small rooms, too. They have a small room called Constellation Room, where you can still see shows for, like, 10 or 15 bucks. Like, those places still exist.
[00:38:28] They may not in 10 years. Some of them like Mr. T's Bowl and in L.A. Like that one shut down, but they're still small clubs and they definitely need all of our support. So, find those clubs seek out, even if you don't know the band, just go see them. Pay, the 10 bucks or the 15 bucks and go see those shows because, I guarantee you, 20 years from now or 30 years from now, when you're old, like me, and you're sitting around talking about old punk rock shows, those are the shows you're going to remember most fondly. So, get out there, spend the little money that you might have on these less expensive shows and stop putting it all into those massive overly priced shows.
[00:39:02] Charles: That's well said. As everybody knows, some of these shows cost, you know, it's like a mortgage payment to go see some of these performers. This has been great, John. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today and have people check out Songbird Collective and bands out there looking for a venue to play at virtually. Check it out.
[00:39:21]
John:
Yeah, definitely. Thank you. This was great. It's a lot of fun. Appreciate it.