In this episode of Seeing Them Live, author Ben Apatow discusses his books on Metallica and Body Count. He shares insights from his live concert experiences, including his first show seeing Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead in 1995, and memorable performances by Prince. Ben also touches on the challenges and highlights of writing about these iconic bands, including interviews with industry legends and the impact of controversial songs like Body Count's 'Cop Killer.' Tune in for an engaging discussion that explores the intersection of music fandom and biographical storytelling.
In this interview on Seeing Them Live, the guest, Ben Apatow, shares his insights and experiences in the music world. Ben is an accomplished author of the books Metallica, the $24.95 Book, and Body Count, part of the Bloomsbury 33 1/3 series. Ben's writing has been featured in various well-known music publications. He begins by recounting his first concert experience, seeing Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead at RFK Stadium in 1995, a formative event for him. He also highlights memorable concerts, including two Prince shows at Madison Square Garden, citing Prince as an extraordinary performer. However, he also shares his most disappointing concerts: Bad Brains and a recent Jane's Addiction show, noting specific incidences that led to his disappointment with these performances. The Jane's Addiction show, in particular, was tarnished by Perry Farrell's visible struggle, which affected the overall performance quality and led to tour cancellations shortly after.
Transitioning to his literary works, Ben discusses the events around his book Body Count, which covers Body Count's controversial debut album featuring the song Cop Killer. The song elicited backlash from police unions, the Senate, and even the President, leading to its removal from the album after only three months. Ben details the dichotomy of the intense reactions to Cop Killer and the larger issues of censorship and societal fears in the early 1990s.
Regarding his book on Metallica, Ben describes its comprehensive coverage, spanning the band's history, individual members, concerts, and broader cultural impact. He also delves into the influence of punk and metal within their music. Ben emphasizes the significance of word-of-mouth and live performances in Metallica's rise to popularity and reflects on how their approach to live shows continues to engage and expand their fan base. He concludes by expressing his enthusiasm for writing these books and outlining potential future projects, including collaborations and new biographies.
BANDS: AC/DC, Bob Dylan, Body Count, Fiona Apple, Fishbone, Iron Maiden, Living Color, Metallica, Patti Smith, Prince, Slayer, Suicidal Tendencies, The Grateful Dead, The Kinks, The Ramones, Ultimate Classic Rock, Velvet Underground.
VENUES:
RFK Stadium, Madison Square Garden, Alpine Valley, Navy Pier, Salt Shed, Lollapalooza.
[00:00:00] Charles: Our guest today is Ben Apatow. Ben is the author of the book Metallica, the $24.95 Book. He is also the author of Body Count, which is part of the Bloomsbury 33 1/3 series of books. Ben's writing has appeared in Alternative Press, Loudwire, Ultimate Classic Rock, Metal Injection, Metal Sucks, Daily News, The Delhi, Electric Literature, Beyond Race, OutBurn, and MLB.com. Ben, welcome to Seeing Them Live.
[00:00:36] Ben: Great. Thanks, Charles. Great to be here.
[00:00:38] Charles: Well, I have a lot of notes, that I've taken, uh, reading both of your books. We're going to cover, or touch on, I should say both of your books, um, in a, in a minute and transition maybe from some of your concert experiences then into your books and we'll, we'll, we'll discuss them.
[00:00:56] Um, and I wanted to kind of keep the discussion or start with the discussion of the books, at first, maybe how it revolves around the live performances of these bands that you've written about extensively. So, I thought maybe we could start with your first concert, Ben. you saw Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead at RFK Stadium in 1995.
[00:01:18] Ben: 1995, I got very lucky. It was, um, less than two months before Jerry Garcia passed away. Um, my dad took me, if I remember right, my mom got Father's Day tickets for him, because me and my dad both love Bob Dylan, and the rest of the family was kind of, eh, about him. So, it was a special thing for us to see Bob Dylan.
[00:01:37] I remember he printed out some, uh, something like a set list from a show earlier on that tour that's very little about it on the internet. And, uh, I was still young enough to think Everybody Must Get Stones was about rocks, but it was, uh, it was wonderful to see Bob Dylan. It was a very formative experience.
[00:01:54] First time I saw someone get arrested, and first time I saw people smoke pot, and I saw just how into the show they were. People were so, um, immersed in Bob Dylan and The Grateful Dead. I loved Bob Dylan. I did not know a lot about the Grateful Dead then. I remember, um, thinking that Jerry Garcia was kind of like, he looked kind of like Santa Claus at that point.
[00:02:13] I'd never seen someone who was kind of a old guy with a white beard rocking like that. And, uh, but I was mesmerized. Yeah, it was a, it was a very formative experience and I, I'll even say a few years ago I found that show online and I streamed it on some Dead archival website, and, you know, it's, late period Dead.
[00:02:32] I don't think it's anyone's favorite Grateful Dead show, but I'm so happy I went, right? I mean, how many people my age got to see The Grateful Dead? That really shaped my, just like, just go to that show, right? And don't spend the rest of your life wishing you had been there in the room with a Grateful Dead like that. I think it shaped my sort of mentality of like, go see as much music as you can for sure.
[00:02:52] Charles: Yeah. And then the parking lot too, is always an interesting. experience, right?
[00:02:56] Ben: Oh yeah. I'd never seen fans like that before. It was, it was amazing. And, and now I do love a Grateful Dead and I still love Bob Dylan.
[00:03:02] Charles: Yeah, that's an awesome first experience. Then you'd mentioned a couple of Prince shows as your best concert, and these were at Madison Square Garden, and they weren't consecutive shows, but they were on the same tour, but they were spaced out maybe five weeks or so, right?
[00:03:21] Ben: About five weeks. I came back early from, I was spending Christmas break with my family and I came back early to see if I could get into that Prince show and I got him a cheaper ticket last minute outside. And, uh, there are a few shows I have thought as like, that could have been the best I've ever seen.
[00:03:37] And I, you know, Iron Maiden was one of 'em there. Fiona Apple, some great, great shows. But Prince was just from another planet. I mean, I remember he just came out in the world change. And if he had just sang, or just played guitar, or just told stories and jokes, or just been like a dancer, or just drummed, he would have been amazing.
[00:03:57] And he did all of it. And he just, he was doing splits and throwing his guitar and catching it. He, it was just one of the most, maybe the most singular performer I've ever seen. Just, there's nobody like Prince. And I, I went back five, weeks later because I just had to see if I could see him one more time I got another ticket outside and I went in and just an absolutely dynamite performer just remark, everything you've heard is true and beyond Prince was amazing amazing performer.
[00:04:22] Charles: Yeah, many people that have been on the podcast here have cited that as their best show. So it's, it's definitely up there with a lot of people. And there were some special guests, on that, first show. You said Cindy Lauper was there.
[00:04:37] Ben: Cindy Lauper showed up on the Encore I think they did a uh they did a Morris Day and the time cover they did Jungle Love of which Prince wrote. And the second tour, he had a bunch of celebrities on stage, including Chris Rock, and they did some Sly Stone covers. It was really, um, another thing I'll say for Prince is that I've rarely seen anyone who can do that high level production show that's also very spontaneous, and it seemed like he was kind of making up the set list as he went along.
[00:05:05] Like, I've seen Madonna a few times, and she's wonderful and has like superhuman levels of energy and charisma and things like that. I also know that it's like, it's kind of a Broadway show, right, where she's got her set planned. And like I said, I'm in awe of her, I couldn't do that. But it was remarkable to see that Prince just made it up as he was in the setlist was completely different every night. And you'd take incredible solos and bring up special guests and bring people up in the crowd. He was just a magical performer.
[00:05:33] Charles: Wow. Yeah. I didn't realize that the, he varied the set list so much like that.
[00:05:37] Ben: Yeah, definitely.
[00:05:38] Charles: That's something I really admire with bands that do that. I think it builds up the fan base. Makes you want to see, well, I wonder what they're going to play tonight.
[00:05:47] Ben: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:05:48] Charles: Ben, if we transition into your most disappointing concerts. You had a couple. One was, uh, this, Bad Brains show, I guess.
[00:05:57] Ben: Yes, um, for a long time I've thought of that as my most disappointing show. That was the week that Obama got elected, and a lot of people were very excited to be there and to see this political punk band. And, I just heard story after story about the Bad Brains being incredible live. There's a video you can see on YouTube where H.R. is like skanking in a suit and he does a backflip and lands and catches it on the, it's unbelievable, so, and he was a little older so I wasn't expecting him to do that, but at that show, the band was incredible and they played a great setlist and he stayed in one place mumbling every third word to every, he was either, you know, I saw a documentary about him, I still can't really tell quite what's up with him, but it's clear that we just missed the boat, you know, he was either fried on drugs or his, you know, mental health was catching up to him.
[00:06:47] Yeah, it was clearly just in, you know, the other guys in the band seemed kind of annoyed and disappointed with him, but he was not in a shape to play. Just this year, I saw a benefit for him, because he's had some health issues, where Living Color played Bad Brains songs, and that was a much more fun show, where they just, they kind of gave the songs the sort of, you know, the passion that they deserve, and, you know, I remember that Bad Brains movie, the other guy said something like, does he think it's a joke? Like, what's wrong with him? So that was disappointing. I was really, I'd heard so much about them and their history and had listened to them for years and that was, that was a letdown.
[00:07:19] Charles: That's too bad, when that happens. You had then, said that maybe, you know, recent Jane's Addiction show may be there with that show as far as the disappointment goes.
[00:07:29] Ben: That was a big disappointment because I'd seen, I've seen Jam's Addiction before and I saw Porno for Pyros which also had Perry Farrell about six months earlier and I went with some friends. It was the first time I'd ever seen all four of the original lineup with Eric Avery together and my buddies were excited to see them, and I had just seen Perry six months ago, and he was great. And it was very clear in the first two songs that something was wrong. I kept thinking of, have you seen the movie Raging Bull?
[00:07:58] Charles: Not in a long, long time.
[00:08:00] Ben: In Raging Bull, I was thinking he loses the fight on purpose, and this guy in the audience just yells out like, What are you doing? And that's the way that this show felt. Where it was like, the other three guys were great. Dave, Eric, and Stephen Perkins made the song sound incredible, and I came away with a new appreciation for them and, uh, listened to them again and again that week because they were so good. Perry was, he was mumbling, he was off key. It was clear that something was really wrong, and my, with the two songs, my friend was like, something's really bad with Perry, right? And, cause I also just always thought of him as like the consummate performer too. And I remember, um, just seeing him six months earlier and just, I was thinking he's like a permanent good mood, right? He just has this, you know, magic in that Lollapalooza movie. And, uh, same with when I was doing interviews for my Body Count book, talking, everyone was like, Perry is magical.
[00:08:46] He's so nice. He is so cool. He makes you feel so special and you can see how he gets all those people to join him on Lollapalooza and things like that. And I just had kind of thought of him that way my whole life. And just seeing him be that much of a mess and a few days later he attacked Dave Navarro on stage and the tour got canceled so something was clearly wrong. But, that was just such a letdown to see Perry in that shape.
[00:09:08] Charles: You know, they're playing in Chicago on that tour on a Tuesday night and I was kind of on the fence, you know, cause during the week, probably would have gone, but, they never, made it here. I've seen them several times. You know, you'd mentioned this Lollapalooza documentary, Ben, um, which I had watched while I was reading your 33 and a Third Body Count Book. You get into Lollapalooza and Perry and Ice T, about, you know, 25 pages in or so.
[00:09:33] But what I thought was interesting, or maybe how we could discuss your two books that I've read here, you know, in that documentary Ice T and Lars Ulrich are on, you know, they're one of the, there, there are a couple of people that are on camera more often than, you know, maybe Trenton Reznor, he was on there quite a bit too.
[00:09:51] But yeah, I thought maybe that would be a good starting point. I, as I'd mentioned in an email before this interview, I went to the first Lollapalooza in 91, and I did see Ice T and Body Count was there and that's one of those concerts where people ask, you know, what concert do you wish you could see or, you know, go to and you know, I think Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, you know, something like that.
[00:10:16] That performance, I kind of wish I could go back in time and re-watch it because, I mean, I probably heard of Ice T back then, but I didn't really understand completely what was going on. But, as you know, halfway through Jane's Addiction's set, Ice T joins Perry on stage and they do this Sly and the Family Stone song, and I have to say that probably the highlight of Lollapalooza or one of them. It's very high up there. So I, I just wanted you, maybe we'll start with the Body Count book, the 33 and a Third book, and just kinda let you chat about it. What is a 33 and a Third book to begin with?
[00:10:56] Ben: It's a series of books that's been around for about 20 years now, um, for about as long as they've been writing, they've been written, I've dreamt of writing one, which is, they're short books about pocket size, about famous albums, and I think when they started they tended to be about Patti Smith and the Kinks and the Velvet Underground and people who are pretty much the, the Rolling Stone canon, basically.
[00:11:19] And they branched out to a wider range of things. I, if you had told me 20 years ago, I'd get to write a Body Count book, I would have thought that was insane that they would publish something like that. But, uh, you know, I guess the canon is changing and what's considered prestigious enough for one of those books.
[00:11:34] I was talking to someone about how it's kind of like the Criterion Collection for albums. You know, this sort of get a prestigious DVD and Blu ray for this movie with some essays in it. It's kind of like that for the album, where it's a, uh, although it's written by one person, and some of them are very personal and relate to the author's personal story with this record.
[00:11:51] And some of them interview the artist and some of them don't. So it's, pretty much up to the author how they're going to approach it, but, uh, yeah, I've wanted to write one for a long time, and, uh, I knew this time it had to be Body. I actually, I submitted a, uh, a Metallica book in 2008 that did not get accepted, but, um, that showed up years later in the other book. And this time around, I was like, I have to write a Body Count book. It has to be this specific thing. So I, threw myself into the pitch and thankfully came up with the book.
[00:12:18] Charles: So you have to, you, like you just said, you have to pitch the idea or you have to give a sample or how deep you have to present it?
[00:12:24] Ben: I had to pitch it and give a sample from the book. Um, they do an open call where they say, okay, we're accepting submissions now. And I got very lucky in that DX Ferris, who wrote the 33 and a Third about Slayer, and has written some other music books, really coached me through the process. You know, it was kind of like Philip Seymour Hoffman, Lester Bangs character in, uh, Almost Famous, where he's calling the boy on the phone like, okay, here's what you got to do now.
[00:12:50] And we're not cool, right? Remember, you're not their friend. You were not, and it's, uh, he, he was really like that kind of help for me. So I, he just, you know, broke down how to do it. And, uh, that was really critical in me getting the the book sold, I think.
[00:13:03] Charles: One of the critical elements, Ben, do you think, because I've heard biographers who've written books on bands and such, they don't have access to anybody in the band, maybe just their friends or relatives and such, but you had access to some of the band members. Is that, is that correct?
[00:13:21] Ben: Yes, I had access to all the current band members. Three, three of the original members have passed away. But, I think it was helpful for me that they're a band with a lot of people who are a lot of associates who are more famous than popular. Like for example Henry Rollins or Jello Biafra or the Fishbone and Living Color guys like getting those guys to talk to me was not as hard as it would have been for um a band like Metallica, right.
[00:13:46] They made a lot of friends. So it was hardest to get the Body Count guys to talk to me. That was kind of like my last part of the plan, but they have so many friends from touring the music industry that people like Duff McKagan or Chuck D Would be like, let me tell you my Body Count story and if I writing about Chuck D or Duff McKagan, it might be harder to get them to talk. But, there was that excitement to like, let me tell you, Ice is the coolest man, and you know, just, Ernie is so nice, so, uh, I did that, and I reached out to, Ice has a manager named George, who has been his manager for about 40 years. He's 100 percent business. He's exactly who you'd expect Ice to be his manager to be. I had to email him about three or four times before he started putting me in touch with Ernie and Ice and people like that. I assure him, this is an honest book, a flattering book. I love these guys and, and, uh, I had to, I had to work for those interviews.
[00:14:34] Charles: I just imagine talking to these guys must have been a real trip.
[00:14:39] Ben: It was, yeah, just, you know, you're just in high school looking at pictures of them in your liner notes, and there's not a lot about them online, you barely know what they look like or what they're like, but then just seeing them on your Zoom or in your email inbox, and it was, uh, it was a real trip to talk to, you know, kind of your greatest punk and metal and hip hop heroes like that, it was wild.
[00:15:00] Charles: You said Perry Farrell was going to, um..
[00:15:02] Ben: I got in touch with his people who are very nice and very professional, and Perry was the biggest pain for me to get to interview. I remember for the last few months, I was really trying to chase down Chuck D and chase down Perry Farrell, and I got Chuck D, I did not get Perry, but he scheduled an interview and he flaked on it, and I sent him some questions, I sent him a different set of questions, and I was like, okay, 20 minutes, okay, 10 minutes, okay, an email, what can I do, I really worked for that interview, and uh, I did not get it.
[00:15:32] His people worked hard for it, but it did not happen. That being said though, kind of like what I hinted at earlier, the um, the people I talked to who worked with him were all like, Aw man, you're gonna love Perry and he's so great and so cool. And you got a sense of how he could flake on stuff like that.
[00:15:48] Kind of the way you see in Lollapalooza where he's got this P.T. Barnum, here comes the show persona. Someone after one of my book readings actually came up afterwards and said, You know, I used to work for Perry, and getting him to do anything was just the biggest pain, and then, he would show up, and it was the greatest party in the world.
[00:16:05] So, you kept working with him, but just getting there was such a pain. And you could see how, I mean, it gets to an extent now that Jane's is in, you know, turmoil right now, but you could see how he could get away with flaking so much because he just once you're there he put I'm sure if I talked to him, he'd put you in such a good mood and just relate and connect and charm. You see how he it gets along with Ice and gets him to do a song at Lollapaloza together I mean, he's gets everyone to join him for this thing. He's magical in that regard and you could see that even when he wasn't there in the book.
[00:16:35] Charles: Yeah. And he wanted to do that song to include it in the movie he made.
[00:16:41] Ben: Yes Gift. Gift. A very bizarre movie. And um, what Ernie told me was that the plan was to, he wanted to do it with Sly Stone, who wrote the song, that Perry wanted to do with Sly Stone, and um, Ernie knew Sly Stone, who lived in the same building Ernie lived in, and was kind of bumming around and on and off drugs and Ernie said okay we'll get you Sly Stone and I know Sly Stone and then Sly ran off to rehab or something he couldn't get Sly Stone and said well can you get Ice T and Perry said I love Ice T and they did the song with Ice T and then they did it on Lollapaloza together and it's uh it's in the movie and everything.
[00:17:14] Charles: That was really a neat treat for the crowd for sure. But yeah, your Body Count book then chronicles this album and then, the controversial song that was on it, Cop Killer. Yeah, you wanna talk about that for, for just a bit?
[00:17:28] Ben: Sure. Cop Killer was eventually, was taken off the record pretty quickly. It was, um, only on for about three months. And by the time I got the Body Count album, Cop Killer had already been taken off. So, I liked it for, you know, it's humor and it's punk and it's metal sides. I did not know about this.
[00:17:45] There wasn't a lot about it in the mid nineties in the newspapers or magazines or online anymore. So I really didn't know much that story. I didn't know what a big story it became. And, um, basically the record came out, it was a modest, success kind of like a punk level record that did about as well as like you'd expect Ramones or Dead Kennedys record to do.
[00:18:07] And then the daughter of a Texas policeman brought the album home and has the song called Cop Killer on it. And it got sent in a police newsletter and then got sent to this police union in Texas and it became this big nationwide controversy where the Senate got involved and the NRA got involved and more police unions got involved.
[00:18:31] The president commented on it, President George H. W. Bush, the first time. Our president had taken a stance against, you know, a popular musician in American history. So it became this big controversy with death threats and boycotts. And, uh, yeah, I talked to Ron DeLorde, who's the police union boss, really led and organized the boycott against to get the song off the record and just how they sort of strategized um taking on the Record label instead of the band because they're not like, well us policemen, we're not gonna stop buying the record. We're not buying it. Anyway, we're gonna stop buying Warner products and it cost them an estimated 150 million dollars and Ice T had a press conference which was also controversial because a lot of people, and to this day, people think that he caved to behind the scenes pressure, right?
[00:19:23] And they said that, well, you took it off of your own accord just because the label said, take the song off or else we're going to drop you. But, from all the interviews I did and behind the scenes folks I talked to, it seemed like that really was his decision to take the song off the record. But it's still not on the record. It's not on streaming services. It's not legally sold in record stores or anything like that.
[00:19:45] Charles: Cause I did see it on YouTube music, I think.
[00:19:48] Ben: It's on YouTube. It's illegally uploaded on YouTube. But, the funny thing about it being on YouTube is that, whereas the internet and streaming has destroyed the music industry in many ways, it's given Cop Killer a second life, right? Because there's a long time in the 90s where if you did not have that album.
[00:20:06] You're never going to hear that song. A lot of people who protested it had never heard it. You could read about the song, this legendary song that got pulled from the record and it's still banned today. There was no way to hear it. But now, post Napster, it's relatively easy. Just go online and find Cop Killer.
[00:20:21] Charles: Yeah. In your book, you'd mentioned kind of these, hypocrisies, or you point out like there was a type of ammunition, Teflon coated bullet called cop killer and Charlton Heston was a big advocate for taking the song off the album, but he wouldn't make a stand against that ammunition being pulled because, his association with the NRA.
[00:20:42] Ben: Yeah, and uh, the NRA actually spent millions of dollars trying to lobby Congress to keep those type of bullets on the market, while leading their own sort of boycott against Cop Killer, which shows that it wasn't really about policemen's lives for them.
[00:20:55] It was funny to see, especially now that, I mean, first off, it's not a rap song. And a lot of people sort of think of it as that way. And Mark is that way. It's described in all the press from that time as, you know, a hip hop song by rapper Ice T and not a punk or metal song by Body Count or a rock song. But, um, it was interesting to see because now hip hop is like this widely celebrated thing and they meet up with Obama at the White House and they have big 50th anniversary celebrations.
[00:21:24] But, it's kind of celebrated as American art form, but you really see in the press in the early 90s, there was so much like, do you know what your kids are listening to? And, you know, you may not know who this man is, but your children do. And there was a lot of fear mongering and sort of, uh, presidential candidate buzzwords with it.
[00:21:37] You know, Dan Quayle's railing against the dangers of hip hop. I'll talk to my students about it. You have no idea how afraid so many people were of this in the 90s. Like, really? That? But it was, uh, it's kind of shocking to read now how much, uh, people were against it.
[00:21:49] Charles: Yeah, because I know Ice T pointed out like Hollywood, you know, in particular the Terminator and how many police officers are killed in those movies and stuff.
[00:21:58] Ben: It was an interesting, um, a big Hollywood thing at the time, too, because there was Terminator, there was Lethal Weapon 3 has a cop killer bullets theme, um, Unlawful Entry was a hit at the time, Basic Instinct. There were a few sort of, uh, violence against cops, or like, exposing bad cop movies at the time. Unforgiven, which won Best Picture that year, um, has a similar theme to it with Clint Eastwood. But, it was definitely on people's minds.
[00:22:20] I don't know if that was because of the the LA riots or you know more of a focus on police brutality. But, yeah, bad police were definitely a big theme in entertainment at the time and Ice T sort of suffered for bringing it up.
[00:22:30] Charles: And, you'd mentioned, just now, it's not a rap album. It's metal and punk, right?
[00:22:37] Ben: Yeah. One thing I love about the record is how it sort of seamlessly blends punk and metal and there are, you know, there are metal bands that punks like and punk sets, you know, metalheads like, but I can't think of many records that have that. You could put Body Count on a list of the best punk records or the best metal records in a way that you couldn't for some of the things that influenced it, like, you know, the Suicidal Tendencies or, um, Slayer, stuff like that. Yeah, you know, Ice T says around the time, like, you know, people say that there's a rock song called Cop Killer. A lot of people in Parliament might say, well, you know, rock is Fleetwood Mac.
[00:23:10] You know, rock is Aerosmith and Jefferson Airplane. Maybe I'd like this song, right? But if you say it's a rap song, I'd say, oh, okay, I want that. That I'm not gonna like, right? That's bad news. So, you know, it was really a way to sort of, um, rally people against the song.
[00:23:22] Charles: Yeah, cause in, in the book you, point that out, you know, several times and I, when I listened to the album again, I was listening for that and it's like, wow, yeah, this is like, well, I knew it was metal, but that the whole, the punk thing I didn't..
[00:23:35] Ben: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Charles: I understand at the time. But yeah, it's there for sure. Also that comes up in your Metallica book as well, right? There's this parallel sort of sound maybe, or style, I guess?
[00:23:50] Ben: Yeah, I'd say Metallica is more of a, more of a metal band, but they definitely have a punk influence. Speaking as someone who grew up in the 90s, to me it made perfect sense that you could like both punk and metal. And reading about the Metallica guys in high school getting teased for liking both the Ramones and AC/DC, right?
[00:24:09] Or, you know, one guy I talked to you about Body Count even, and I didn't end up using the quote in the book, although I like this quote, but he said, look, you know, I, um, When I first heard the record, I didn't really like it because I was a metal guy and I loved, you know, Slayer, Metallica, and that sort of proficient music, and this was kind of raw and sloppy, and it was like, I saw them live and then I got it, but this was a little too punk rock for me, right?
[00:24:29] So, growing up, when I did, it made perfect sense that you could like Metallica and the Sex Pistols, or Black Flag and Motorhead and Slayer and all those bands. Yeah, it was just seeing, going back and seeing the press, they got the time of the attitude they got the time. It was sort of revolutionary listening to a record like Kill Them All at the Time, which sounds very punk and very hardcore.
[00:24:49] And there's this sort of a heavy mile a minute grooves that you can hear in everything from the Melvins to the Dillinger Escape Plan, it's a very innovative form of punk, kind of changing what punk could be, and what metal could be.
[00:25:00] Charles: Yeah. And when Metallica first came on the scene, like I mentioned, I think in an email to you, I, I wasn't, I didn't really get into them maybe because of the pace of the music. I was more of an Iron Maiden, Judas Priest fan. But, some of the things you bring up in your book and, and we're talking now about your Metallica book, it's called Metallica, The $24.95 Book, which is $24 and 95 cents is a sticker on it. You wanna explain the story behind the title 'cause it's, I think it's pretty cool.
[00:25:30] Ben: Thank you, yeah. It's something that Metallica used to do in the 80s, where they would stamp the price of merchandise on, they did for their EP, the $5.98 EP, Garage Days Revisited, and the Cliff Burton tribute video, Cliff Em All where they would put the price in kind of a similar looking stamp on the, on the music or on the VHS to keep retailers from overcharging fans. So it'd be like, don't charge any more, this is $5.98, so I wanted to do some tribute to that to Metallica and the way they did that.
[00:26:03] Charles: And, in the book, again, I'm a, Metallica novice, uh, when I, when I started reading it, but it's a, it's a very comprehensive book.
[00:26:11] Ben: Thank you.
[00:26:11] Charles: You know, it talks about the band starting out. All of the members or people who were ever in the band, you, you address each one with, well, more than one chapter, right? There, there's several.
[00:26:24] Ben: I gave each of them individually one chapter, and I gave a few chapters to other parts of their legacy. But, the inspiration for that was Rob Sheffield's book about the Beatles. He wrote a book called Dreaming the Beatles that, sort of addressed them from a similar kind of, where there is facts but also, you know, cultural analysis and significance and some sort of a, you know, the philosophy of this band and, you know, and he also had individual chapters about each member. So I kind of modeled the book after that.
[00:26:54] And to me, Metallica feels kind of like The Beatles in that they've had little bases, but they're like four distinct personas people who have a casual sense of the music. Know and can recognize James Lars Kirk Robert, you know, can see, you know, their, their personas there, their chemistry, the way they work together. So, I sort of modeled it after that book.
[00:27:16] Charles: Yeah, and then in the book, you also, cover touring, you cover each album, the fasion, the fact that they don't really wear costumes quote, you know, air quote, other books, film, videos, the fandom, and just overall history.
[00:27:33] So it's a really comprehensive treatment of the band. I thought, uh, which any fan of Metallica or even, you know, people maybe have seen Metallica, um, this book would definitely open their eyes to new, new avenues and such. So when I was reading it, Ben, I saw, like, similar things that you had mentioned about Metallica, I kind of experienced with Iron Maiden when I saw them early on, and you, you have a bit in there about Iron Maiden. And so, like, one of the things was Metallica, when they would open for, you know, a big act, they would annihilate basically the main act or, or, or half the fans would leave because they saw Metallica and that was, that was it, you know?
[00:28:20] Ben: Yeah. I've heard about those stories for years and I wish, you know, by the time I saw them, they were headliners, but I remember caring about, yeah, we all left after Metallica or, you know, the other band came out and the crowd was just sat in one place or, you know, we all, uh, so just what a, what a history, you know, what a remarkable story.
[00:28:37] Charles: Yeah, it was, uh, I saw, I went up to Alpine Valley, which is like a bandshell in, uh, Wisconsin. And it was, uh, Iron Maiden and the Scorpions. This is like on their Number of the Beast Tour 2, I guess, maybe something like that. And I'd never heard anything about Iron Maiden. Didn't know who they were. Nothing.
[00:28:58] Because, like, Metallica, like you mentioned in the book, they are never played on the radio. Like ever, you know, at that time. So my friends and I are there, Maiden comes out and after they left, you know, Eddie on the stage, their mascot, that whole thing, it was insane. And in my opinion, they like destroyed the Scorpions.
[00:29:22] I mean, the Scorpions come out and you're like, okay, you know, it was a good show. So from that point on, you know, the word of mouth, I guess spread and, and we, we would go see Iron Maiden all the time. And I mentioned when they played that, uh, Chicago fest show about six weeks later, you know, that they're playing some side stage and it held about 5,000 people and we got there at like nine, 10 o'clock in the morning and sat there all day waiting, you know?
[00:29:49] And, uh, by some estimations that I read online and I don't know how accurate these numbers are, of course, but they said like 20,000 people showed up and it was insanity. and they were fantastic. And when I would see Maiden then years later on other tours, and they were in Chicago, they would always bring up that show at Navy Pier and how it took off from there. And, um, so, you know, reading in your book, Metallica is kind of the same type of thing, right?
[00:30:21] Ben: Yeah, um, it's funny. I think they were a word of mouth thing for many years. They were not on the radio until one and very little until the Black Album. I think that they, they sort of changed what could and could not be metal and what could and could not be mainstream rock. You know, mainstream rock does not sound like the Black Album until the Black Album comes out.
[00:30:43] And then suddenly, the top ten on billboard gets a lot heavier and suddenly you see the debuts of Pantera and Anthrax and White Zombie and Tool and Rage Against the Machine. So, they changed the idea of what could be heavier or what could be popular. But, yeah, I think for a while and you know Lars says in interviews that we want to do a word of mouth thing. We want to build on, on just live performances and you know, we're not going to do music videos even they end up doing them and uh, It was kind of similar to Iron Maiden. And um, it's funny you brought that up, I just saw Iron Maiden again this year, twice, in Jersey and Brooklyn, and uh, talked to my wife about it, I said, you know, I love Iron Maiden, I love the songs in the albums, but it's also, to me, it's kind of like The Grateful Dead, where it's, it's a cultural experience.
[00:31:27] Like I love the fans, you know, way going way out the door and just, you know, who bring costumes and hold up signs from whatever country they flew over from and, you know, Eddie and just the way that they're just like in incredible shape, they're all pushing 70 and just like doing high kicks and throwing the guitars around.
[00:31:46] It's a similar kind of cultural experience. Just, it's not just there to be like, well, I want to hear Aces High and Number of the Beast. Right? You go into just immersing in that sort of insanity of an Iron Maiden show, right?
[00:31:57] Charles: Yeah, they're fantastic live. And, you just mentioned the Grateful Dead again, and, um, you know, with regard to Metallica. You write about this in your book, how they, you know, when they tour, play a song in tribute to the city. So like, they played two shows in Chicago here in August, and I was, I saw on set list, that it's, it's mentioned as Kirk and Rob Doodle, Chi Town Gangster. And your bookie also say they take a, they always take a day off in between shows. So then, August 11th, they played a Ministry song.
[00:32:33] Ben: Oh, wow.
[00:32:34] Charles: Just One Fix.
[00:32:36] Ben: One Fix. Wow. Yeah. Because L.L. Juergensen's from, Chicago.
[00:32:40] Charles: You're like, Oh, that's cool. You know, that's great. They did that. But when, when you think about it, I looked on their, their tour schedule and it's like 44 nights, right? I don't know how many cities that is, but they have to practice or be proficient with 44 of these one off songs, that are really going to get the fans into it. And I just think that's what, you know, keeps people coming back because you don't know what they're going to play. And they played like they played on August 9th. I don't know, 16 song set with that one song in there from, you know, Chicago tribute.
[00:33:15] And then two days later, they played 16 different songs. No songs were duplicated and they play this Ministry tune. And I'm like, that is incredible dedication. You know, when you hear some of these older rockers, like Roger Daltrey about Setlist.com takes all the spontaneity out of it. It's like, dude, you've got a deep catalog, man, you know, learn a few more songs or something, you know, and mix it up a little.
[00:33:41] Ben: Yeah, one thing I'll say from, and obviously I'm a big fan of Metallica, but usually bands on that level, even for the ones that I'm not an expert in, usually the ones that are playing stadiums are there for a reason. And you just see, going to see Metallica, and they want to make sure everybody in the house gets their money's worth and they want to play specific stuff to the audience. I think the last time I saw Metallica was in Chicago at Lollapalooza and James gave a moving speech during Fade to Black about, you know, mental health and they just, they were clearly just, you know, and it was full of kids who were just there to hang out all day at Lollapalooza and take their, you know, Enter Sandman selfie. They make sure everybody stays riveted. They go all out to deliver the best possible show.
[00:34:27] Charles: You know, that's, I think what keeps the fans coming back is the intensity and just the attention to these little details like that is phenomenal. Ben, I noticed, the first words in your Metallica book was a dedication to Kyle, I believe.
[00:34:44] Ben: Yes. Kyle is, uh, my best friend from high school. I, I describe him as like my Beavis and butthead, Calvin and Hobbes, Bill and Ted, Wayne and Garth. That's Kyle. And, Kyle's a drummer, so Kyle in high school would wear earplugs to shows, and he insisted I do that too, and being a dumb high schooler, I was, eh, earplugs, lame, and if, you know, my parents told me that, I would have had that reaction too, but the fact that my cool friend, who knew more about punk and metal than I did, was like, don't mess around with this, wear earplugs. Got me to do that early on, and I still do it to every show I go and, uh, I must have saved so much of my hearing that way. So I dedicated the booked in the guy who, um, told me wear earplugs.
[00:35:26] Charles: That's cool. I wish I would have followed his advice early on too, but I, I do now, and I see a lot of people in the crowds now, a lot of people wearing earplugs, um, and, and even, uh, this venue in Chicago, this new venue called the Salt Shed, they have a fish bowl in their gift shop filled with earplugs.
[00:35:45] Ben: Oh, that's great.
[00:35:46] Charles: You could go and grab them if you forgot them, which I have done. My, uh, sister went to see Metallica in Chicago just recently, and, um, she sent me like a video snippet and it was showing like all these old ticket stubs they had on the screen.
[00:36:02] Ben: Yes.
[00:36:02] Charles: Montage of all the places they played,
[00:36:06] Ben: Yeah.
[00:36:06] Charles: And they probably were all from Chicago, I would imagine. It was really interesting to see. Um, it was must, must've been a great show.
[00:36:14] Ben: Yeah. Another thing is they're sort of, they're, they're sort of stage set up and back is something that's in their video as a way that just keeps people involved. They, put a lot of work into it for sure.
[00:36:23] Charles: Did you see them all at all on this tour?
[00:36:26] Ben: I saw them last on, oh, you know, I saw them in New Jersey on the 72 Seasons tour. They played two nights in a row, completely different setlists both nights, and, uh, they were great. They have different openers, different setlists. So I guess that was the last time I saw them after Lollapalooza. I try to see them as much as I can.
[00:36:45] Charles: And speaking of Lollapalooza, I noticed that Body Count, they just released a new album, right?
[00:36:50] Ben: They did! Yeah, it's great. Merciless. Yeah, it's out, this week.
[00:36:53] Charles: Yeah, we're recording this was in November 26. So yeah, a couple days ago, and I was thinking, I wonder if they're gonna play Lollapalooza.
[00:37:02] Ben: That's a good question. You know, Lollapalooza has changed a lot, and it's, uh, now it's like a few day festival, and it's not, uh, I don't know what direction I'll go in with Perry in the state that he's in now, and I don't know, You know, seeing at the end, and I, maybe this is, like, me with my old man talk, but, uh, Watching those first few, uh, tours in the Lollapalooza documentary, then seeing the way it is today and I'm looking at and obviously I'll go back and I'll see Metallica, but some of these new bands I'll see headlining, I'm just like is anyone thinks that that's as revolutionary as Body Count really?
[00:37:39] But um, so now it's a it's a more, you know, it's a more mainstream thing and you know, you can argue has the mainstream come to it has it come to pick these huge bands and not sort of more Sort of half a million sellers like Jane's Addiction and Susan and the Banshees and Living Color and Body Count and the Butthole Surfers.
[00:37:57] But yeah, it's a different thing, but yeah, I would still love to see Body Count come back to Lollapalooza. Ice said to me in our interview that it was the best tour I ever did. So, they're definitely a big part of that history.
[00:38:08] Charles: I think it, maybe it's in your book where this version of Body Count, the first version and this is the seventh iteration.
[00:38:16] Ben: That's from Ernie. Ernie's basically like Ice T's Keith Richards. He's high school friend, co-writes the songs with him. Yeah, he said there's been seven versions of Body Count, and the ones that have worked have been the first one and the one we have today, and, and I can hear that, too.
[00:38:29] I think that the first record's a classic, and they've, you know, had some ups and downs since then, but when they came back about ten years ago, I was like, oh, wow, these guys are back in a big way. I think they've sort of stayed on that level over the last ten years.
[00:38:41] Charles: Yeah. I'm looking forward to hopefully, you know, they'll, they'll come through Chicago.
[00:38:45] Ben: Yeah.
[00:38:46] Charles: At some point, maybe Lollapalooza, but I guess we'll see. Ben, is there anything else you wanted to add about your books today?
[00:38:55] Ben: Well, you've done a good job with the questions. Thank you. I, I will say, without downplaying all the awful things about being an author and writing books, it was such a pleasure to write about this thing that you love and go talk to people about it, and interview your heroes. It's such a pleasure and an honor to get a book out about either of these bands.
[00:39:13] So, yeah, if you have a dream like that, please go for it. Yeah, I worried, like, am I going to be sick of this thing at the end of it? No, it actually made you like it more. And now I, I feel much more kind of like, going into battle with this thing and all the struggles of writing a book and finding out personal stories about these people and going backstage with them. It really makes you love and appreciate, I wish everybody got to write a book about their band that they love because it just It changes the way you think about it in such a great way.
[00:39:38] Charles: Do you have any other ideas on the horizon for books?
[00:39:42] Ben: Sure. Yes. I've pitched a book. A co-write of an autobiography of an old music legend. I'm hoping that comes through we'll see. And I have something to another book series called Music Matters. I've got some stuff written on Screamin Jay Hawkins that I was working on. Workshoped with that a little and, I'm hoping, hoping, I'm still in touch with them and emailing from time to time, but I'm hoping that, uh, Ernie C from Body Count will also let me write his book with him. So, a few different ideas. I'm, uh, hoping they all take off at some point, but uh, yeah, we'll get there when we get there.
[00:40:13] Charles: Yeah, we'll keep an eye out for those. Where can people find you, Ben?
[00:40:17] Ben: I just joined Blue Sky. I'm, BABATOFF. They're B A P A T O F F. My Meta accounts got hacked, unfortunately. I used to write daily stories about Metallica and Body Count there, but now they're hacked, so, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can reach out to me on Blue Sky, I have a Twitter account I haven't been using, but you can contact me through there too, that's happy to, uh, do that.
[00:40:39] And yeah, by all means reach out. I love hearing from readers and other music fans around the world about stuff. So, it means a lot. Tell the authors that you like, that you like their books. It means a lot to them. So please reach out for sure.
[00:40:51] Charles: Yeah. And, uh, both of these books, I say would, would make great gifts for any music fan. whether or not they are into that particular band or not. Like myself, I mean, the Metallica book was very, very interesting, comprehensive page turner. Great job on that Ben.
[00:41:08] All right. Well, uh, thanks for joining us on Seeing Them live and you know, we'll stay in touch and see, um, what your next book might be in the future here.
[00:41:17]
Ben:
Thanks again, Charles. I really appreciate it.